August 2003
- A potential best-seller? Richard A. Bartle
- Identifying Players Scion Altera
- Identifying Players Crosbie Fitch
- Metrics for assessing game design David Kennerly
- ADMIN: Crunch thread J C Lawrence
- Mapping real money into MUD money Alex Chacha
- Mapping real money into MUD money Katie Lukas
- Mapping real money into MUD money David Kennerly
- Mapping real money into MUD money Kent Peterson
- Mapping real money into MUD money Peter Tyson
- Mapping real money into MUD money Matt Mihaly
- Mapping real money into MUD money Paul Canniff
- Research in the Gaming Industry Damion Schubert
- Research in the Gaming Industry Kerry Fraser-Robinson
- Research in the Gaming Industry Richard A. Bartle
- Research in the Gaming Industry Matthew S. Ayres
- Mapping real money into MUD-Money Henrik Johansson
- Java or LPC (DGD)? Ben Chambers
- Java or LPC (DGD)? Ammon Lauritzen
- Java or LPC (DGD)? T. Alexander Popiel
- Java or LPC (DGD)? ceo
- Java or LPC (DGD)? Lars Duening
- Java or LPC (DGD)? Torgny Bjers
- Java or LPC (DGD)? Ryan Underwood
- Reputation systems: a possible path for investigation J C Lawrence
- Reputation systems: a possible path for investigation david.l.smith@mail-x-change.com
- Reputation systems: a possible path for investigation Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Reputation systems: a possible path for investigation Andrew L. Tepper
- Reputation systems: a possible path for investigation Matt Mihaly
- Reputation systems: a possible path for investigation Vincent Archer
- Reputation systems Castronova, Edward
- Reputation systems J C Lawrence
- Mapping real money into MUD-Money Ren Reynolds
- MudDev Faq - part 2 Marian Griffith
- PHP muds Peter Harkins
- PHP muds Torgny Bjers
- Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book Christer Enfors XW {TN/PAC}
- Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book Dave Rickey
- Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book Evan Harper
- Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book Richard A. Bartle
- Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book Tamzen Cannoy
- Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book Kerry Fraser-Robinson
- Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book Richard A. Bartle
- Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book Dave Rickey
- Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book Marc Bowden
- The lack of Creativity and Beauty a game user james_nesfield@nesfieldcapital.com
- Artists and Copyrights Derek Licciardi
- Artists and Copyrights Paolo Piselli
- Artists and Copyrights Marian Griffith
- Artists and Copyrights Paul Dahlke
- Using Windows Scripting Host Owen Matt
- Using Windows Scripting Host F. Randall Farmer
- Using Windows Scripting Host Karl Dyson
- Using Windows Scripting Host Tess Lowe
- Better Game Design through Data Mining David Kennerly
- Better Game Design through Data Mining Chris "Diamonds" Stewart
- When Will Player-Avatar Integrity Be a Feature of Persistent Worlds? vladimir cole
- When Will Player-Avatar Integrity Be a Feature of Persistent Worlds? Martin Bassie
- When Will Player-Avatar Integrity Be a Feature of Persistent Worlds? Craig H Fry
- When Will Player-Avatar Integrity Be a Feature of Persistent Worlds? Matt Mihaly
- When Will Player-Avatar Integrity Be a Feature ofPersistent Worlds? Michael Tresca
- When Will Player-Avatar Integrity Be a Feature ofPersistent Worlds? Baar - Lord of the Seven Suns
- [Fwd: Metrics for assessing game design] ceo
- Examine/Look Elia Morling
- Examine/Look Ammon Lauritzen
- Examine/Look Marc Bowden
- Examine/Look Lars Duening
- Examine/Look Eamonn O'Brien
- [BUS] Account-management systems ceo
- [BUS] Account-management systems Rayzam
- [BUS] Account-management systems Christopher Allen
- Job opportunity on Star Wars Galaxies Koster, Raph
- NCSoft yearly report Mathieu Castelli
- MUD using the .net framework Norman Beresford
- MUD using the .net framework John Buehler
- MUD using the .net framework James F. Bellinger
- MUD using the .net framework Linder Support Team
- Virtual property lawsuit in China Koster, Raph
- Virtual property lawsuit in China Nicolai Hansen
- Virtual property lawsuit in China Daniel Anderson
- Virtual property lawsuit in China Kerry Fraser-Robinson
- Virtual property lawsuit in China Vladimir Cole
- Virtual property lawsuit in China Ren Reynolds
- Virtual property lawsuit in China Nicolai Hansen
- Virtual property lawsuit in China ren@aldermangroup.com
- Expected value and standard deviation. Jeff Cole
- Expected value and standard deviation. Scion Altera
- Expected value and standard deviation. Jeremy Hill
- Expected value and standard deviation. katie@stickydata.com
- Expected value and standard deviation. Ben Chambers
- Expected value and standard deviation. Zach Collins {Siege}
- Expected value and standard deviation. Ben Chambers
- Expected value and standard deviation. Robert Zubek
- Expected value and standard deviation. Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Expected value and standard deviation. Eamonn O'Brien
- Expected value and standard deviation. Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Expected value and standard deviation. Freeman, Jeff
- Expected value and standard deviation. Zach Collins {Siege}
- Expected value and standard deviation. Bernard Graham
- Expected value and standard deviation. Freeman, Jeff
- Expected value and standard deviation. Jeff Cole
- Expected value and standard deviation. Koster, Raph
- Expected value and standard deviation. Katie Lukas
<EdNote: Quote fixed>
And Raph Koster wrote:
> Jeff Cole wrote:
>> Yeah. I don't think it matters much if your advancement is broad
>> or narrow, tall or short, subtle, obvious or even reversed, as
>> long as the feedback to the player is absolutely obvious and
>> unmistakable.
>> I think you can get away with anything so long as you tell the
>> player that he is, in no uncertain terms, doing very well, and is
>> now mightier than he was before.
> I don't think it's in the Laws, but I've always treated it as a
> Law:
> Players will do the boring thing rather than the fun thing, if
> they advance faster that way.
> As a corollary:
> There's no way to get rid of the "boring" way to play your
> game. Players can always choose to play conservatively to
> maximize return while minimizing risk.
I'm not sure that this doesn't move us into Elephant Territory - as
in the Elephant in the Room. Personally, I think that the above
statements reflect some central assumptions about what constitutes
good (or fun) gameplay that I'm not so sure are accurate, or at
least not accurate for enough people.
As for the corollary to Raph's initial statement, I absolutely could
not disagree more. The boring way(s) is/are a function of
traditional game design, and the statement implies that it is
impossible to design a game that does not feature at least one
"boring" method of advancement. IMHO, if this is the way we are
going to think as game designers, what on earth is the point? Why
would we begin designing a game around a central assumption that at
a minimum part of advancement has to be boring?
Players constantly and consistently generate feedback (a LOT of it)
about what is interesting and what is boring. While definitions of
interesting vary a great deal, definitions of boring remain fairly
consistent - mostly repetitive activities and obvious outcomes.
And yet, the foundation of most games - released and in development
- feature huge quantities of repetitive activities. Is it more
difficult to create variation and complexity? Of course. But at
this point in game development, all the MUDs/MMORPGs out there are
starting to look remarkably the same. Players will tell you this as
quickly as game designers, and it is easy to see just by looking at
the few points that gamers focus on - PvP, death, balance. Those
questions are not very conceptual, they are not very interesting,
and they are certainly not issues that ought to be central to the
question of whether or not to play a game. They are more
technicalities than actual, interesting, philosophical questions.
When the players themselves focus solely on the details, game
designers have failed. When the players are unable to see the game
as a holistic idea, one that either appeals or does not, the
designers have failed. When the questions and answers involve
mathematical equations rather than what is honestly interesting
about a game, the designers have *especially* failed. Are most
current games derived from D&D-style play? Yes, of course. But why
do we not use the technology and the talent at hand to abstract
those concepts? Why do we have gamers behaving as if the game is
actually rolling dice rather than immersing themselves in the world?
"No way to get rid of the 'boring' way." If I believed that, I
would be neither playing nor designing games - what could the reason
to do so possibly be?
-k - Expected value and standard deviation. Fidelio Gwaihir
- Expected value and standard deviation. Katie Lukas
- Expected value and standard deviation. Matt Mihaly
- Expected value and standard deviation. Martin Bassie
- Expected value and standard deviation. Katie Lukas
- Expected value and standard deviation. Matt Mihaly
- Expected value and standard deviation. Paul Schwanz
- Expected value and standard deviation. Matt Mihaly
- Expected value and standard deviation. Koster, Raph
- Expected value and standard deviation. Paul Schwanz
- Expected value and standard deviation. Amanda Walker
- Expected value and standard deviation. John Buehler
- Expected value and standard deviation. Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Expected value and standard deviation. Jeff Cole
- Expected value and standard deviation. Paul Schwanz
- Expected value and standard deviation. Dr. Cat
- Expected value and standard deviation. David Loving
- Expected value and standard deviation. Pat Ditterline
- Expected value and standard deviation. Michael Chui
- Expected value and standard deviation. Matt Mihaly
- Expected value and standard deviation. Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Expected value and standard deviation. Chanur Silvarian
- Expected value and standard deviation. Katie Lukas
- Expected value and standard deviation. Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Expected value and standard deviation. Oliver Smith
- Expected value and standard deviation. Daniel Anderson
- Expected value and standard deviation. Koster, Raph
- Expected value and standard deviation. Nicolai Hansen
- Expected value and standard deviation. Dark Lamenth
- Expected value and standard deviation. Fidelio Gwaihir
- Expected value and standard deviation. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Expected value and standard deviation. gbtmud
- Expected value and standard deviation. Tom "cro" Gordon
- Expected value and standard deviation. Sheela Caur'Lir
- Expected value and standard deviation. Roger Hicks
- Expected value and standard deviation. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Expected value and standard deviation. Katie Lukas
- Expected value and standard deviation. Freeman, Jeff
- Expected value and standard deviation. Matt Mihaly
- Expected value and standard deviation. Tom "cro" Gordon