February 1998
- OT: Following in the footsteps of JCL Alex Oren
- OT: Following in the footsteps of JCL Nathan Yospe
- OT: Following in the footsteps of JCL Richard Woolcock
- OT: Following in the footsteps of JCL Chris Gray
- OT: Following in the footsteps of JCL coder@ibm.net
- OT: Following in the footsteps of JCL Marc Eyrignoux
- Ada? Andrew C.M. McClintock
- Monthly FAQ posting Koster, Raph
- Monthly FAQ posting Adam Wiggins
- Monthly FAQ posting Ling
- Monthly FAQ Posting Ling
- Monthly FAQ Posting Ling
- Monthly FAQ Posting Ling
- Monthly FAQ Posting Chris Gray
- Monthly FAQ Posting Ling
- Monthly FAQ Posting J C Lawrence
- Monthly FAQ Posting J C Lawrence
- Monthly FAQ Posting Alex Oren
- Monthly FAQ Posting Greg Miller
- Monthly FAQ Posting s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Monthly FAQ Posting Ling
- Monthly FAQ Posting Ling
- Monthly FAQ Posting Ling
- Monthly FAQ Posting Ling
- Monthly FAQ Posting Ling
- Monthly FAQ Posting Ling
- Monthly FAQ Posting Ling
- Monthly FAQ Posting Ling
- Monthly FAQ Posting Ling
- Monthly FAQ Posting Ling Lo
- Monthly FAQ Posting Koster, Raph
- Monthly FAQ Posting Ling Lo
- Monthly FAQ Posting Greg Miller
- Monthly FAQ Posting Marian Griffith
- Monthly FAQ Posting Greg Miller
- Monthly FAQ Posting Ling Lo
- Databases Shawn Halpenny
- OT: This is a test coder@ibm.net
- OT: This is a test Alex Oren
- Clients and things [Was: OT: This is a test] Matt Chatterley
- Clients and things [Was: OT: This is a test] coder@ibm.net
- Clients and things [Was: OT: This is a test] Matt Chatterley
- MUD Development Digest Dr. Cat
- DBs and Events Greg Munt
- DBs and Events Nathan Yospe
- DBs and Events Greg Munt
- DBs and Events Nathan Yospe
- DBs and Events Felix A. Croes
- DBs and Events Jon A. Lambert
- DBs and Events coder@ibm.net
- DBs and Events s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- DBs and Events Jon A. Lambert
- DBs and Events coder@ibm.net
- (subject missing) Ben Greear
- META: Unsubscribed users dur to bounces coder@ibm.net
- META: Unsubscribed users dur to bounces Adam Wiggins
- Source Code Release Greg Munt
- Source Code Release Ben Greear
- Source Code Release Greg Munt
- Source Code Release Ben Greear
- Source Code Release Greg Munt
- Source Code Release Richard Woolcock
- Source Code Release Ben Greear
- Source Code Release Chris Gray
- Source Code Release Greg Munt
- Source Code Release coder@ibm.net
- Source Code Release Richard Woolcock
- Source Code Release Stephen Zepp
- Source Code Release Jon A. Lambert
- Source Code Release Greg Munt
- Source Code Release Jon A. Lambert
- Source Code Release Greg Munt
- Source Code Release Travis Casey
- Source Code Release Jon A. Lambert
- Source Code Release Jon A. Lambert
- [RESEARCH]MUD articles archive (fwd) Greg Munt
- Socket programming (Was: The impact of the web on muds) Jon Leonard
- Socket programming (was: The impact of the web on muds) Vadim Tkachenko
- Socket programming (was: The impact of the web on muds) Richard Woolcock
- byte-code anyone? Chris Gray
- byte-code anyone? Jon Leonard
- byte-code anyone? Chris Gray
- byte-code anyone? Jon Leonard
- byte-code anyone? Chris Gray
- user-centered design (was Clients) Mike Sellers
- OT: Linux g++ Greg Munt
- OT: Linux g++ Ben Greear
- OT: Linux g++ coder@ibm.net
- OT: Linux g++ Shawn Halpenny
- OT: Linux g++ Chris Gray
- OT: Clients Vadim Tkachenko
- OT: Clients Adam Wiggins
- OT: Clients coder@ibm.net
- META: OS wars coder@ibm.net
- META: OS wars Mike Sellers
- Clients Stephen Zepp
- Moore's Law sucks (was: 3D graphics) Brandon J. Rickman
- Moore's Law sucks (was: 3D graphics) Adam Wiggins
- Moore's Law sucks (was: 3D graphics) Chris Gray
- Moore's Law sucks (was: 3D graphics) coder@ibm.net
- Moore's Law sucks (was: 3D graphics) Brandon J. Rickman
- Moore's Law sucks (was: 3D graphics) Mike Sellers
- Moore's Law sucks (was: 3D graphics) Chris Gray
- Moore's Law sucks (was: 3D graphics) Ben Greear
- Moore's Law sucks (was: 3D graphics) Ling
- Moore's Law sucks (was: 3D graphics) Brandon J. Rickman
- Moore's Law sucks (was: 3D graphics) coder@ibm.net
- Moore's Law sucks (was: 3D graphics) Alex Oren
- Version Control (was: DBs and Events) Vadim Tkachenko
- Version Control (was: DBs and Events) coder@ibm.net
- Version Control (was: DBs and Events) Vadim Tkachenko
- Version Control (was: DBs and Events) coder@ibm.net
- Version Control (was: DBs and Events) coder@ibm.net
- Version Control (was: DBs and Events) Jon A. Lambert
- Version Control (was: DBs and Events) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Version Control (was: DBs and Events) Raph & Kristen Koster
- Version Control (was: DBs and Events) coder@ibm.net
- Version Control (was: DBs and Events) Felix A. Croes
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Jon Leonard
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) coder@ibm.net
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Vadim Tkachenko
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Chris Gray
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) J C Lawrence
On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:58:08 PST8PDT
Caliban Tiresias Darklock<caliban@darklock.com> wrote:
> On 01:41 AM 2/24/98 +0000, I personally witnessed Chris Gray jumping
> up to say:
>> [Chris L:]
>>> The key feature of TCP which I'd remove would be the error
>>> correction. Given a predictive client its both unecessary and
>>> counter-productive.
>> Only to a certain extent. Sure, you can probably cruise over a bit
>> of lost data in graphics or audio output. Missing some text from
>> the middle of a paragraph could be a bit shocking to the average
>> user, however. Also, the channel back from the client to the server
>> should not lose any of the user's input.
> I'd also like to point out that error control is very much
> appreciated out here in areas where line noise is not a thing of the
> past.
...deletia...
> In the BBS era, all of us out
> here would get huge amounts of line noise that made it impossible to
> do much of anything. Now all we get is a slowdown in our transfer
> rates. I sort of like that. I'm not fond of the idea that someone
> out there wants to get rid of it because he doesn't need it.
You misconstrue. The idea is not to remove error corection and stream
validation for the sake of performance on good networks, it is for the
sake of those in situations like you (or those like me on a good
network, but playing a game which is one bad connection).
Only absolutely critical data is guaranteed delivery. All the rest is
done on a best case basis with the client presenting you its best
guess as to the current scenario based on the (possibly greviously
incompleat) data it has recieved to date.
> But what you're proposing means that I need to move. That's not
> really feasible.
<bow>
Now there's evidence of MUD addiction: Yeah, we're moving to
California to get lower ping and net-reliability times to Murkle...
> Okay, so I could go out and petition the phone company to spend
> several million dollars just so I cen get better performance from
> your game. (Yeah, that's going to happen.)
Which? The petition? <kof?>
> But no matter how you try to convince the public otherwise, the
> players are going to think the line noise and dropouts are the fault
> of YOUR game. After all, they looked at a room and they got
> garbage. They got into a fight with a mob, and lost four attacks due
> to line noise. Will you still have players? Undoubtedly. But when
> all is said and done, you've told a huge number of people that they
> just can't play your game. Isn't that a little rude?
Nope. Please re-read. The idea is no exclusionary, but inclusionary.
Currently I have enourmous problems playing a couple very good games
in eastern Europe due to dropped packets and telnet freezing the
entire interface while it gets that last missing byte (this is what
"lag" actually is BTW). Quite frankly I don't care about that missing
byte -- I can always issue another "LOOK" command, or ask the speaker
to repeat.
What I want is responsiveness, and moving to a protocol which does not
guarantee correctness for the entire stream can offer some of that.
--
J C Lawrence Internet: claw@null.net
(Contractor) Internet: coder@ibm.net
---------(*) Internet: claw@under.engr.sgi.com
...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) J C Lawrence
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) J C Lawrence
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Adam Wiggins
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Chris Gray
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Vadim Tkachenko
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Chris Gray
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Vadim Tkachenko
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Chris Gray
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Adam Wiggins
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Chris Gray
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) J C Lawrence
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Chris Gray
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Adam Wiggins
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Ben Greear
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Adam Wiggins
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) Jon A. Lambert
- Net protocols for MUDing (was: Moore's Law sucks) J C Lawrence
- VEIL (was: Clients) Brandon Gillespie
- LDMs (large dynamic maps) was Unique items Mike Sellers
- Describing the environment Stephen Zepp
- Describing the environment Richard Woolcock
- Back on the list Niklas Elmqvist
- Back on the list Chris Gray
- Back on the list coder@ibm.net
- Unique items The Eternal City
- Unique items coder@ibm.net
- Position sorting Adam Wiggins
- Position sorting coder@ibm.net
- Unique items coder@ibm.net
- Unique items Nathan F Yospe
- BOOK: Myer's Silverlock coder@ibm.net
- BOOK: Myer's Silverlock Chris Gray
- BOOK: Myer's Silverlock Adam Wiggins
- Dynamic Loading of Modules (was: Back on the list) Niklas Elmqvist
- Dynamic Loading of Modules (was: Back on the list) Vadim Tkachenko
- Dynamic Loading of Modules (was: Back on the list) J C Lawrence
- Dynamic Loading of Modules (was: Back on the list Jon A. Lambert
- Net protocols for MUDing s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Net protocols for MUDing Stephen Zepp
- Net protocols for MUDing Chris Gray
- Net protocols for MUDing Adam Wiggins
- Net protocols for MUDing J C Lawrence
- Net protocols for MUDing Shawn Halpenny
- Net protocols for MUDing J C Lawrence
- Net protocols for MUDing Chris Gray
- Dynamic Loading of Modules Niklas Elmqvist
- Senses (was: The MLI Project) s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- bar-time (was The MLI Project) Mike Sellers
- 3D engines for MUDs (was: The MLI Project) Niklas Elmqvist
- 3D engines for MUDs (was: The MLI Project) J C Lawrence
- 3D engines for MUDs (was: The MLI Project) Michael Hohensee
- 3D engines for MUDs (was: The MLI Project) Miroslav Silovic
- 3D engines for MUDs (was: The MLI Project) Michael Hohensee
- Why not compile java into object code? Ben Greear
- Why not compile java into object code? Cynbe ru Taren
- Why not compile java into object code? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Why not compile java into object code? Nathan F Yospe
- Why not compile java into object code? Niklas Elmqvist
- Why not compile java into object code? Ben Greear
- Why not compile java into object code? Jon A. Lambert
- Why not compile java into object code? Travis Casey
- Why not compile java into object code? Chris Gray
- Tutorial: Comments on Hand-crafting a compiler Jon A. Lambert
- Tutorial: Let's build a Compiler! - Part I: Introduction Jon A. Lambert
- Tutorial: Let's build a Compiler! - Part II: Expression Parsing Jon A. Lambert
- Tutorial: Let's build a Compiler! - Part I: Introductio Chris Gray
- Tutorial: Let's build a Compiler! - Part I: Introductio s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Tutorial: Let's build a Compiler! - Part I: Introductio coder@ibm.net
- MUD Development Digest Dr. Cat
- MUD Development Digest Koster, Raph
- MUD Development Digest Mike Sellers
- Tutorial: Let's build a Compiler! - Part III: More Expressions Jon A. Lambert
- Tutorial: Let's build a Compiler! - Part IV: Interpreters Jon A. Lambert
- Tutorial: Let's build a Compiler! - Part V: Control Constructs Jon A. Lambert
- Tutorial: Let's build a Compiler! - Part VI: Boolean Expressions Jon A. Lambert
- Tutorial: Let's build a Compiler! - Comments Jon A. Lambert
- Tutorial: Let's build a Compiler! - Part VII: Lexical Scanning Jon A. Lambert
- Tutorial: Let's build a Compiler! - Part VIII: A Little Philosophy Jon A. Lambert
- Tutorial: Let's build a Compiler! - Part IX: A Top View Jon A. Lambert
- Tutorial: Let's build a Compiler! - Part X: Introducing TINY Jon A. Lambert
- Compilers: Toy available for ftp Chris Gray