August 2004
- What is an MMOG? ceo
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Mike Rozak
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Otis Viles
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Richard A. Bartle
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Scott Tengelin
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Dana V. Baldwin
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series David Kennerly
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Ghilardi Filippo
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series zgj22@drexel.edu
- Books on Virtual Worlds Matt Cruikshank
- DGN: Requesting feedback on a "concept document" (somewhat related to Better Combat) Craig Huber
- The Casual-Player Killer: Time? (was MMO Communities) Will Jennings
- The Casual-Player Killer: Time? (was MMO Communities) Amanda Walker
- The Casual-Player Killer: Time? (was MMO Communities) Michael Sellers
- [BIZ] CoH subscribers numbers Ghilardi Filippo
- [DGN] Socialization against the fun [was: MMO Communities] HRose
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Fwd: Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) kennerly@finegamedesign.com
- Time debt Stephen McDonald
- Fwd: Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) kennerly@finegamedesign.com
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) David Kennerly
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) David Kennerly
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) David Kennerly
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paul Schwanz
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) cruise
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) ceo
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) ceo
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) cruise
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) ceo
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) cruise
ceo wrote:
> cruise wrote:
>> game like chess an enjoyable passtime - at least for some. I love
>> chess and could probably play it all day if I could find a
>> willing opponent. Ditto Connect-4.
> You say that, but ... have you ever tried it? (I have done with
> c-4 on many occasions and with chess only very rarely; it revealed
> some very interesting stuff about mental alertness that I'm sure
> would make a good a PhD topic...).
Close to on occasion - certainly it will depend on how tired I as to
start with. But your point is a good one - I have a feeling my
tastes are somewhat atypical :P
>> Would you be more willing to play a game of chess, then a game of
>> connect-4, then say, Settlers of Catan, maybe tic-tac-toe,
> TTT requires very little mental effort and is inherently dull for
> most resonably smart people because the rapidity with which you
> learn that it's a pointless game.
That was partly my point :P
>> etc. ie. Is it the fundemental process of competing
>> intellectually, or is it the specifics involved each time?
> I thought I explained that originally: it's the mental exhaustion
> of playing these games. Or, to put it another way, with an IQ
> close to 200 I don't have any difficulty with pattern-based games,
> and *without effort* I can beat any mediocre opponent. In that
> sense, chess can be simple and cheap in terms of concentration and
> effort; but I'm not really playing chess: I'm just adopting a
> couple of simultaneous strategies (so that when a forced move
> blocks one I can switch to one of the others) and doing minor
> analysis to avoid making more than a few stupid mistakes.
> But if I'm playing someone who I know to be a regular chess
> player, I have to try really hard, because I'm simply not going to
> get away with trivial analysis, and actually play
> "properly". Perhaps if I didn't have a day-job which required
> intensive design, planning, and execution (enough to feel
> physically exhausted from doing nothing more than thinking all
> day) then I would relish playing chess properly. As it stands, I'd
> rather do something that is more fun and requires less "work".
Just wanted to be clear. It is the fundemental "work" required in a
complex process. Okay. Which is to be expected - a challenge is one
thing, but too much is obviously going to become wearisome.
Players will vary along this scale - those who have nothing else to
do but play the game all day, and can stand repeated complex
combats. Others who just load it up for an hour after work need
something a little lighter. So offering a challenge suited for all
would be a good goal to aim for.
> For instance, Shogun: Total War is a realtime massive battle game
> (akin to tabletop war games). It is excessively tactical (with
> huge bonuses for troops attacking on a flank, from the rear, etc),
> yet because it's real-time the actual process involves a lot of
> watching how your plan is developing, and tweaking it as it goes
> along. If something unexpected happens (as it often does), you are
> cued for a few minutes of intensive planning and action (having to
> think and issue new orders in realtime), but then it's back to the
> non-intensive (though still active) play for the next 5
> minutes. This is a game I find great for after work - it allows
> you to be intensive for small bursts (although even then you don't
> *have* to if your plan was good: you'll still win, but will lose
> more troops in the process), without tieing you up with a long
> exhaustive session with no relent.
I think this is the better model to follow than chess - a varying
pace rather than a long slow plodding one, but still with peaks of
intense mental involvment.
> Of course, my reasons for disliking chess / C-4 / etc as a leisure
> activity may be unique to me. Certainly, I've always found chess
> peculiarly frustrating, even to an extent "boring", simply because
> you can only ever do one thing at once. Games like Shogun appeal
> because you can easily have 12 units, arranged into 4-6 groups,
> with each group simultaneously carrying out independent
> orders. Perhaps I just prefer inherently parallel games to
> inherently sequential ones...
In a MMOG, parallelism would seem to be highly appropriate -
certainly the discussions about time-debt elsewhere suggest some
kind of parallelism would alleviate a number of grievances.
>> If, say, combat vs. each weapon is a different "game", would that
>> suffice to retain interest?
> Do you mean, one weapon's game would be like chess, another would
> be like the card-game "snap" (A combination of chance and
> reflexes), etc?
> If so, then "YES!", since that would give me some kind of choice
> of what kind of game I was playing when.
Hrm. It's suddenly struck me that this follows a design pattern from
another genre entirely that has proved very successful: 2D shooters
(R-Type, etc.)
Most of the level is comprised of simple reflex testing enemies, but
each "end-of-level" boss usually requires careful thought to
determine it's weak point, and a slower, more deliberate style of
play.
Current MMOG's concentrate on the minions, but where are the
end-of-level boss equivalents? Raid-level mobs? But they're only
end-game, huge-group requiring affairs. To really vary the pace of
an MMOG, players could reguarly encounter an "end-of-level" baddy -
literally, by requiring a major battle to gain each level up, or as
part of quests. Or whatever. But variability in pace and cognitive
complexity, especially if it's under player control, seems to be a
very worthy goal.
--
[ cruise / casual-tempest.net / transference.org ]
"quantam sufficit" - Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paul Schwanz
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) KaVir@t-online.de (Richard Woolcock)
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) cruise
- Cognitively Interesting Combat Derek Larson
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (keyword: archetypes) Eric Random
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (keyword: archetypes) Paolo Piselli
- ADMIN: Effective progress methods for MUD-Dev (was Better Combat (long)) J C Lawrence
- FW: Deriving Self Esteem from one's MMORPGavatar[was:Long-Term Rewards] vladimir cole
- Asynchronous Event Execution & Localizing Brian Lindahl
- database design Lazarus
- database design Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- database design Lazarus
- database design
- [DGN] database design Steven King
- database design Erik Bethke
- database design Sean Kelly
- database design Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death Artur Biesiadowski
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death Vladimir Cole
- PVP and perma-death Vladimir Cole
- PVP and perma-death Artur Biesiadowski
- PVP and perma-death Steven King
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death Steven King
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death Douglas Goodall
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death [NEW THEME] After Deployment Tiago Carita
- PVP and perma-death Paul Schwanz
- PVP and perma-death J C Lawrence
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death Koster, Raph
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death ceo
- PVP and perma-death Michael Sellers
- PVP and perma-death Matt Mihaly
- PVP and perma-death Douglas Goodall
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Derek Licciardi
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death J C Lawrence
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Michael Sellers
- PVP and perma-death Byron Ellacott
- PVP and perma-death J C Lawrence
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] William Leader
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Stephen McDonald
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] David Kennerly
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] J C Lawrence
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] David Kennerly
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Koster, Raph
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] J C Lawrence
- ADMIN: Effective progress methods for MUD-Dev Jim Purbrick
- The Great Scam J C Lawrence
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG J C Lawrence
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG Koster, Raph
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG Douglas Goodall
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG J C Lawrence
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG David Kennerly
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG Megan Fox
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Matthew Rick
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Brian Hook
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations ceo
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Sean Middleditch
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Paul Schwanz
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Jason Lai
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations J C Lawrence
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations HRose
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations J C Lawrence
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Megan Fox
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations J C Lawrence
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations HRose
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Brian Miller
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Michael Sellers
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Michael Hartman
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Brian Miller
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Chris Duesing
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Douglas Goodall
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations J C Lawrence
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] William Leader
- On balance and reality Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- On balance and reality William Leader
- On balance and reality Koster, Raph
- On balance and reality Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- On balance and reality HRose
- On balance and reality Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- On balance and reality Vladimir Cole
- On balance and reality William Leader
- On balance and reality William Leader
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Koster, Raph
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Gedanken
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Koster, Raph
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] HRose
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Koster, Raph
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Matthew Dobervich
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Mike Rozak
- text based MUD Codebases, which one to pick? mirjam.eladhari@interactiveinstitute.se
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Douglas Goodall
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Steven King
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Michael Hartman
- Complexity and Accessibility (was: Better Combat (long)) Will Jennings
- SOC DGN: AC like alligiance system Matthew Rick
- SOC DGN: AC like alligiance system Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- SOC DGN: AC like alligiance system cruise
- SOC DGN: AC like alligiance system Artur Biesiadowski
- SOC DGN: AC like alligiance system HRose
- "a nicer species" (from today's Chronicle) (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Distributed State Systems Davion Kalhen
- Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Distributed State Systems Alex Arnon
- Distributed State Systems Davion Kalhen
- Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Distributed State Systems Alex Arnon
- Distributed State Systems Alex Arnon
- Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Distributed State Systems Bruce Mitchener
- Distributed State Systems Michael Hartman
- Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Distributed State Systems Thomas Tomiczek
- Distributed State Systems Brian Lindahl
- Complexity and Accessibility Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Paolo Piselli
- wherefor in-game artists? Richard A. Bartle
- wherefor in-game artists? Sean Howard
- wherefor in-game artists? David Kennerly
- wherefor in-game artists? ceo
- wherefor in-game artists? David Kennerly
- wherefor in-game artists? Richard A. Bartle
- wherefor in-game artists? Paolo Piselli
- wherefor in-game artists? Richard A. Bartle
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Richard A. Bartle
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Robert Zubek
- wherefor in-game artists? Matt Mihaly
- wherefor in-game artists? Christopher Allen
- wherefor in-game artists? Matt Mihaly
- wherefor in-game artists? Christopher Allen
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Douglas Goodall
- wherefor in-game artists? Christopher Allen
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Christopher Allen
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Koster, Raph
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Koster, Raph
- wherefor in-game artists? Douglas Goodall