August 2004
- What is an MMOG? ceo
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Mike Rozak
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Otis Viles
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Richard A. Bartle
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Scott Tengelin
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Dana V. Baldwin
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series David Kennerly
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Ghilardi Filippo
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series zgj22@drexel.edu
- Books on Virtual Worlds Matt Cruikshank
- DGN: Requesting feedback on a "concept document" (somewhat related to Better Combat) Craig Huber
- The Casual-Player Killer: Time? (was MMO Communities) Will Jennings
- The Casual-Player Killer: Time? (was MMO Communities) Amanda Walker
- The Casual-Player Killer: Time? (was MMO Communities) Michael Sellers
- [BIZ] CoH subscribers numbers Ghilardi Filippo
- [DGN] Socialization against the fun [was: MMO Communities] HRose
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Fwd: Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) kennerly@finegamedesign.com
- Time debt Stephen McDonald
- Fwd: Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) kennerly@finegamedesign.com
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) David Kennerly
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) David Kennerly
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) David Kennerly
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paul Schwanz
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
--- kennerly@finegamedesign.com wrote:
>> - how fast of a reaction time will the player be required to
>> have?
> No faster than the roundtrip lag of the network, so about 1 second
> lower-bound is safe in the US on 56 kbps modem?
I would probably give them more time than one second. With network
latency that would require the HPBs to have near instantaneous
client-side reaction time. This affects things such as: what should
the minimum casting time on interruptable spells be? Assuming that,
due to latency, the client sees his foe casting 0.5 sec after the
casting starts, he reacts in X amount of time, his interrupt command
takes 0.5 sec to reach the server, then the minimum casting time
should be 1 sec + upper bound for X (client-side
player-reaction-time). My preference would be to set that lower
bound at 2 seconds to keep things from being too twitchy. BTW - I
am all for move/counter-move as it requires player reactions during
combat, but there is no need to make it SuperStreetFighterOnline to
make it interesting.
>> - how frequently will the player have to make decisions?
> John Buehler proposed no more often than once each 3 seconds. But
> that's just one pacing preference. How about a range from 1
> second to 15 seconds?
Have you ever played the custom "Defense of the Ancients" style maps
that are popular with online Warcraft III? The hero-vs-hero combat
has a very PvP flavor to it, with the intersting strategy coming in
the spatial posturing (analogus to the proposed "fighting stances"?)
and in the use of the abilities on timers (each hero usually has
several abilities each on 10-30 second timers). I find that these
combats have a nice pacing that is exciting yet not twitchy. As a
player you constantly monitor the combat state, evaluating wether to
advance or retreat or burn some mana on an ability. I'm pretty sure
the pacing of ability usage or "posture change" falls in your
suggested range.
>> - how much information will the player have to remember during
>> combat?
> Depends on the desired combat. To continue my magic number trick:
> between 0 and 3 preceding game states? Let's say each state has
> no more than 10 bits of
Hmm, I wasn't really thinking of the game-tree itself as a
working-memory element. I was more referring to things pertinant to
decision-making that are not made explicit in the interface. Stuff
like "this enemy can cast FOOBIE BLETCH" or "this enemy easily
blocks standard melee attacks" or "Chun Li's super combo goes like:
jump-in, kick-high, kick-medium, kick-high ..." Speaking of Street
Fighter, an elite player may know the precise timing of 40 super
moves, but during a match he will only need to actively remember the
few that belong to his opponent.
>> - how many cognitive structures (production rules, decision-tree
>> nodes, or whatever model you prefer) will the player need to
>> maintain in order to be successful at combat?
> I can't estimate combinatorics without first designing the combat.
Thats ok, I just want to get people thinking about this stuff in the
context of their own project :)
> However, as soon as the player has an optimal strategy, meaning
> she has solved the game, then it's not fun any more. The
For a fixed game tree this is possible, but this is where the
uncertainty of the opponent's move comes in. If everyone is
constantly responding to their opponent, and there is a bit of
chance thrown in to boot, then you can't really "solve" combat in a
way that requires no decision making. So long as the player has to
think and react, I would say the experience stays interesting. If
the only time a player is reacting to a mob is by taunting every
20-or-so seconds when it makes a break for the healer, then of
course her game tree can be "solved".
> Not all equal cognitive loads are equally entertaining. Both a
> D&D 3.5e character and a 1040EZ tax form require an equal amount
> of paperwork. Both reading a cereal box's ingredients and a
> sonnet impose an equal cognitive load.
Good point, a user's motivations do play heavily into how much
something interestes them. But I don't think there is any problem
with players being motivated to quest for fame, glory, and phat
lewt.
>> natural conclusion is to increase cognitive-load over time.
> Which a decent MMP does: Over time a player gains new items and
> new skills that require new and more complicated tactics.
This sounds like a great method for adding interest - what do you
think are some good examples of non-linear skill advancement that
achieve this?
> Again, however, it would silly to only increase cognitive-load
> over time. For example, a simple method is just to speed up the
> rate. To double the cognitive-load, cut the decision making time
> from 2 seconds per cycle to one second. This works for some
> training, but it's not panacea for games.
It worked for Tetris ;) Seriously though, it is a tool in the
toolbox, but again it is ultimately limited by our constraints on
reaction-time and such. I much preferred the idea of increasing the
complexity of the mental model needed for combat.
> Or increase combinations over time, which an MMP does (and many
> non-MMPs do). A player doesn't start out in Lineage, EverQuest,
> or any of the other MMP with all the abilities or access to every
> tactic. I thought CoH was
But again, if there is a known optimal strategy for a given comabt
instance, it does not matter how many options you have. Perhaps
discovering this strategy is fun, but discovery can only happen so
many times. I still think that making the combat process itself
inherently interesting is the way to go.
David, thanks for bouncing those ideas back at me. I look forward
to continuing this discussion, but its getting damn late here on the
east coast! -Paolo
====Paolo Piselli
ppiselli@yahoo.com
www.piselli.com , www.bestcoastswing.com - Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) cruise
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) ceo
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) ceo
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) cruise
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) ceo
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) cruise
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paul Schwanz
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) KaVir@t-online.de (Richard Woolcock)
- Cognitively Interesting Combat Derek Larson
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (keyword: archetypes) Eric Random
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (keyword: archetypes) Paolo Piselli
- ADMIN: Effective progress methods for MUD-Dev (was Better Combat (long)) J C Lawrence
- FW: Deriving Self Esteem from one's MMORPGavatar[was:Long-Term Rewards] vladimir cole
- Asynchronous Event Execution & Localizing Brian Lindahl
- database design Lazarus
- database design Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- database design Lazarus
- database design
- [DGN] database design Steven King
- database design Erik Bethke
- database design Sean Kelly
- database design Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death Artur Biesiadowski
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death Vladimir Cole
- PVP and perma-death Vladimir Cole
- PVP and perma-death Artur Biesiadowski
- PVP and perma-death Steven King
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death Steven King
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death Douglas Goodall
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death [NEW THEME] After Deployment Tiago Carita
- PVP and perma-death Paul Schwanz
- PVP and perma-death J C Lawrence
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death Koster, Raph
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death ceo
- PVP and perma-death Michael Sellers
- PVP and perma-death Matt Mihaly
- PVP and perma-death Douglas Goodall
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Derek Licciardi
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death J C Lawrence
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Michael Sellers
- PVP and perma-death Byron Ellacott
- PVP and perma-death J C Lawrence
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] William Leader
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Stephen McDonald
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] David Kennerly
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] J C Lawrence
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] David Kennerly
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Koster, Raph
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] J C Lawrence
- ADMIN: Effective progress methods for MUD-Dev Jim Purbrick
- The Great Scam J C Lawrence
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG J C Lawrence
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG Koster, Raph
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG Douglas Goodall
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG J C Lawrence
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG David Kennerly
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG Megan Fox
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Matthew Rick
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Brian Hook
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations ceo
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Sean Middleditch
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Paul Schwanz
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Jason Lai
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations J C Lawrence
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations HRose
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations J C Lawrence
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Megan Fox
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations J C Lawrence
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations HRose
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Brian Miller
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Michael Sellers
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Michael Hartman
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Brian Miller
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Chris Duesing
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Douglas Goodall
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations J C Lawrence
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] William Leader
- On balance and reality Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- On balance and reality William Leader
- On balance and reality Koster, Raph
- On balance and reality Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- On balance and reality HRose
- On balance and reality Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- On balance and reality Vladimir Cole
- On balance and reality William Leader
- On balance and reality William Leader
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Koster, Raph
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Gedanken
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Koster, Raph
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] HRose
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Koster, Raph
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Matthew Dobervich
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Mike Rozak
- text based MUD Codebases, which one to pick? mirjam.eladhari@interactiveinstitute.se
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Douglas Goodall
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Steven King
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Michael Hartman
- Complexity and Accessibility (was: Better Combat (long)) Will Jennings
- SOC DGN: AC like alligiance system Matthew Rick
- SOC DGN: AC like alligiance system Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- SOC DGN: AC like alligiance system cruise
- SOC DGN: AC like alligiance system Artur Biesiadowski
- SOC DGN: AC like alligiance system HRose
- "a nicer species" (from today's Chronicle) (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Distributed State Systems Davion Kalhen
- Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Distributed State Systems Alex Arnon
- Distributed State Systems Davion Kalhen
- Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Distributed State Systems Alex Arnon
- Distributed State Systems Alex Arnon
- Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Distributed State Systems Bruce Mitchener
- Distributed State Systems Michael Hartman
- Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Distributed State Systems Thomas Tomiczek
- Distributed State Systems Brian Lindahl
- Complexity and Accessibility Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Paolo Piselli
- wherefor in-game artists? Richard A. Bartle
- wherefor in-game artists? Sean Howard
- wherefor in-game artists? David Kennerly
- wherefor in-game artists? ceo
- wherefor in-game artists? David Kennerly
- wherefor in-game artists? Richard A. Bartle
- wherefor in-game artists? Paolo Piselli
- wherefor in-game artists? Richard A. Bartle
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Richard A. Bartle
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Robert Zubek
- wherefor in-game artists? Matt Mihaly
- wherefor in-game artists? Christopher Allen
- wherefor in-game artists? Matt Mihaly
- wherefor in-game artists? Christopher Allen
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Douglas Goodall
- wherefor in-game artists? Christopher Allen
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Christopher Allen
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Koster, Raph
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Koster, Raph
- wherefor in-game artists? Douglas Goodall