August 2001
- [DGN] RP awards (was: Something in the water) Ananda Dawnsinger
- [DGN] RP awards (was: Something in the water) Matt Mihaly
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Matt Mihaly
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Hanz, Rob
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Travis Casey
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Dave Rickey
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Richard A. Bartle
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Koster, Raph
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Daniel James
- CGMud testing Chris Gray
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Eli Stevens
- TECH: STL / Heaps, David Bennett
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Travis Nixon
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Vincent Archer
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Sean K
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Sean K
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Adam Martin
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Ling Lo
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Paul Schwanz
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Chris Jones
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Kwon Ekstrom
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- TECH: STL / Heaps, shren
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Jon Lambert
- Dictionary of Body Language ling.lo@coment.dk
- Dictionary of Body Language Koster, Raph
- Where to go with the maddog page Frank Crowell
- Academic journal on computer games Jussi 'Sulka' Haro
- "The gaming situation" by Markku Eskelinen Jussi 'Sulka' Haro
- "The gaming situation" by Markku Eskelinen Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "The gaming situation" by Markku Eskelinen Madman Across the Water
- "The gaming situation" by Markku Eskelinen Matt Mihaly
- "The gaming situation" by Markku Eskelinen Travis Casey
- Non-Linear Item Combination Systems... Justin Rogers
- Rats in a cage? J C Lawrence
- Rats in a cage? J C Lawrence
- ECTS 2001 & GDC Europe Adam Martin
- ECTS 2001 & GDC Europe J C Lawrence
- Java tidbits (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Ling Lo
- Java tidbits (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Bobby Martin
- Java tidbits (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Alistair Milne
- Player Types (Was Anarchy Online) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Korean marketing effort... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Federico Di Gregorio
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Luke Carruthers
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Robin Lee Powell
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Robin Lee Powell
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Robin Lee Powell
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Robin Lee Powell
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Bobby Martin
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Miroslav Silovic
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Kwon Ekstrom
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Skotos Articles: Why Marrach Isn't the Movies #1, #2, #3, and a Coda [LONG] Christopher Allen
- [BIZ] Job on a MMORPG Dave Kennerly
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Dave Kennerly
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Richard A. Bartle
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Ian Collyer
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Communit y Feeling)) Koster, Raph
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Ling Lo
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Richard A. Bartle
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Marc Fielding
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) John Hopson
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (wasCommunity Feeling)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Adam Martin
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Erwin S. Andreasen
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was CommunityFeeling)) Dave Kennerly
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was CommunityFeeling)) Erwin S. Andreasen
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Brian Hook
- MudDev FAQ - part 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ - part 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev Faq - part 1 Marian Griffith
- Mud Dev FAQ - Part 1 Marian Griffith
- Mounts and Vehicles Greg B
- Mounts and Vehicles Justin Harvey
- Mounts and Vehicles Richard A. Bartle
- Mounts and Vehicles Ammon Lauritzen
- Mounts and Vehicles Koster, Raph
- Mounts and Vehicles susan wu
- Mounts and Vehicles Tamzen Cannoy
- Mounts and Vehicles J C Lawrence
- Mounts and Vehicles Richard A. Bartle
- Mounts and Vehicles lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- Mounts and Vehicles Frederick Nacino
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Trump
- Wilderness (AO) Peter Tyson
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Brian Hook
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / H eaps, etc.) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Justin Rogers
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / H eaps, etc.) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Dave Kennerly
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Jeremy Noetzelman
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Nathan F. Yospe
- small outfit is looking for computer game designers/programmers Frank Crowell
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Marc Fielding
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Kristen L. Koster
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Kwon Ekstrom
- Pocket PC Development Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Pocket PC Development Peter Tyson
- Pocket PC Development Frank Crowell
- Pocket PC Development Peter Tyson
- Pocket PC Development Frank Crowell
- Pocket PC Development Peter Tyson
- Pocket PC Development Paul Schwanz
- Pocket PC Development Peter Tyson
- Pocket PC Development Matt Owen
- Pocket PC Development Coyote
- Pocket PC Development Frank Crowell
- Pocket PC Development Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Pocket PC Development Peter Tyson
- Pocket PC Development Ling Lo
- Re[4]: d20 Travis Casey
- Re[4]: d20 Travis Casey
- Re[4]: d20 Michael Tresca
- Re[4]: d20 Travis Casey
- Re[4]: d20 Michael Tresca
- [TECH] [ObjC] : programming languages - Obj-C as opposed to Java Adam Martin
- [TECH] [ObjC] : programming languages - Obj-C as opposed to Java Bruce Mitchener
- [TECH] [ObjC] : programming languages - Obj-C as opposed to Java Brian Hook
- Chances of success (was d20 system) Bobby Martin
- Chances of success (was d20 system) Travis Casey
- Chances of success (was d20 system) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Chances of success (was d20 system) Travis Casey
- Chances of success (was d20 system) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Chances of success (was d20 system) Jon Lambert
- Chances of success (was d20 system) Kwon Ekstrom
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Robin Lee Powell
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Bruce Mitchener
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Dan Root
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Robin Lee Powell
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Miroslav Silovic
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Robin Lee Powell
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Bruce Mitchener
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Miroslav Silovic
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Robin Lee Powell
- MBTI vs Bartle Type (was: Personality Types) Ian Collyer
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Matt Mihaly
- Re[4]: Chances of success (was d20 system) Travis Casey
- Re[6]: d20 Travis Casey
- Re[6]: d20 rayzam
- Re[6]: d20 Bobby Martin
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #404 - 16 msgs Dr. Cat
- Personality Types Corey Crawford
- Chances of success (Bobby's algorithm) Bobby Martin
- SMAUG Code (was Personality Types) Kwon Ekstrom
- SMAUG Code (was Personality Types) Corey Crawford
- SMAUG Code (was Personality Types) Alistair Milne
- SMAUG Code (was Personality Types) Kwon Ekstrom
- SMAUG Code (was Personality Types) Miroslav Silovic
- SMAUG Code (was Personality Types) Kwon Ekstrom
- SMAUG Code (was Personality Types) Bruce Mitchener
- Re[6]: d20 Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Matt Owen
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Dan MacDonald
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Kevin Littlejohn
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Troy Fisher
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Chris Gray
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Matt Mihaly
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Lars Duening
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Dan MacDonald
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Chris Gray
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Dan MacDonald
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Kwon Ekstrom
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Jon Lambert
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Sean K
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Matt Owen
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? verb@rpn.port5.com
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Travis Casey
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Matt Owen
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Troy Fisher
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Matt Owen
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Dan MacDonald
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Matt Owen
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Bruce Mitchener
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Tess Lowe
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Nathan F. Yospe
- TECH: .Net (was: programming languages (was: TE CH: STL / Heaps, etc.)) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Pocket PC Development Peter Tyson
- Mental Nudges (was Pocket PC development) Paul Schwanz
- Mental Nudges (was Pocket PC development) Frank Crowell
- Mental Nudges (was Pocket PC development) Ian Collyer
- MojoWorld, or a new product for generated content Bruce Mitchener
- MojoWorld, or a new product for generated content Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- MUDs as an educational tool in impoverished regions? Eric Rhea
- ColdC documentation (SMAUG Code) brandon@roguetrader.com
- MUD to include space and more Daniel Bendiksen
- MUD to include space and more Brian Hook
- MUD to include space and more Andrew Norman
- MUD to include space and more David Loeser
- MUD to include space and more Phillip Lenhardt
- MUD to include space and more shren
- [DSN] Why Permadeath is Irrelevant Paul Schwanz
- [DSN] Why Permadeath is Irrelevant Robin Lee Powell
- [DSN] Why Permadeath is Irrelevant John Buehler
- [DSN] Why Permadeath is Irrelevant Paul Schwanz
- [DSN] Why Permadeath is Irrelevant Daniel Bendiksen
- [DSN] Why Permadeath is Irrelevant John Buehler
Paul Schwanz writes:
> John Buehler wrote:
>> Paul Schwanz writes:
>> 2. Players should not be risking their entertainment as a
>> result of normal gameplay.
> It is difficult to reconcile this statement with (nearly?) every
> arcade game I've ever played. Your quarter (and therefore your
> continued entertainment) is always at risk. Perhaps you will say
> that with arcade games, you haven't lost much, since you haven't
> invested much. While that may be true to an extent, if you don't
> have another quarter, you are risking your entertainment.
The price paid for admission doesn't fall under the category of what
I'm referring to as 'entertainment'. With arcade games, the
challenge of the game is the entertainment in general. In some
arcase games, the eye candy is another element of entertainment.
>>> 1. Give a wider range of significance to actions, instead of a
>>> narrower one.
>> I certainly support the idea of a spectrum of outcomes, what you
>> call "all kinds of consequences". Personally, I don't think that
>> "consequences" in a game world really matter to anybody. It's
>> when the consequences are applied to the players that they
>> matter. And negative player consequences should be eliminated
>> where possible.
> Are you then saying that games should not matter to the players?
> At all? I knew you were interested in making them more casual,
> but this makes it sound like you are interested in making them
> irrelevent. Is this right?
> Perhaps I'm not understanding. It seems to me that you are saying
> that only extra-game consequences really matter to the players,
> but that there should be no negative extra-game consequences. To
> me, if all extra-game consequences are positive, then they are not
> really consequences...they are more akin to give-aways.
The purpose of my statement there was to say only that when players
play games, they should find entertainment, not penalties. Both the
entertainment and the penalties that I'm referring to are at the
player level.
To contrast that statement, if my character is walking down the
street and it steps on a tack, it might react automatically by
hopping up and down on one foot, cursing a blue streak and then
hopping sideways into a vendor's display, knocking it over and
tossing bits of goods every which way. That's unpleasant for the
character, but it might be very entertaining for the player
involved.
Because of the way that people seem to tightly associate player with
character, it generally results in the structure that when the
character has something bad happen to it in-context, the designers
ensure that the player doesn't enjoy the outcome either. The
realism folks will say that this is necessary because the world
won't operate properly if players don't feel the consequences of
their character's actions. I say that the basic premise is silly.
Players play games for entertainment. Only the most hardcore are
interested in enduring the pain of bad decisions - and the stress of
ensuring that bad decisions are avoided or not made by mistake.
Death models are the most obvious example of where character
misfortune is tied to player pain. Typically when a character dies,
the character loses achievements of one form or another.
Unfortunately, this not only penalizes the character, but it also
penalizes the player. It's usually not entertaining for the player
to regain the same achievements that had already been gained.
According to the rules of what I'm saying, a game should be
structured so that losses in combat or other dangerous pursuits
should result in even more entertainment. When a character's leg is
damaged, I expect the character to limp, and entertainingly so.
Further, I expect the introduction of a limp to change the
entertainment that the game provides, however subtly, without
dramatically reducing it. For example, perhaps there is a medical
evacuation that is available for limping characters. It's a
different path through the game, but it at least offers the player
some kind of new experience. The goal being that the newness is
entertaining (spoken like the explorer that I am).
Ultimately, what I'm talking about would boil down to the player
never being obligated to do anything that they don't want to do.
That's fairly impossible in a multiplayer game, but limiting the use
of negative consequences on the PLAYER when a character does
something bad is A Good Thing.
> Personally, I see nothing wrong with negative extra-game
> consequences per se. I'm interested in keeping the focus of the
> consequences in-game because these are role playing games and I'd
> rather keep the fiction intact while letting the impact of
> decisions filter down through the character to the palyer. In my
> mind, these games could have something to teach players about
> making wise decisions, and the developer that spares the rod
> spoils the player, to coin a phrase. (And here I realize that we
> are perhaps talking about two different kinds of negative
> consequences.)
If a roleplayer plays the game, they don't need extra-game negative
consequences.
If a non-roleplayer plays the game, they don't care about
roleplaying overmuch, and they don't want extra-game negative
consequences.
Note that I'm referring to NEGATIVE consequences. I want all
extra-game consequences to be appealing to the player. So being
thrown in jail should be entertaining. It's just another avenue to
gameplay. If you need to limit the number of players who are
playing criminals, then artificially manage it. Don't rely on the
pain of having one's character in jail to discourage criminals.
Create a list that players sign up for in order to quality for the
ability to commit crimes and to keep the player-run justice system
going. When you get caught, your turn is up and you can reapply for
another spot in the list after you finish with your entertaining
in-game character penalty. Note that criminal acts have to be
entertaining for all involved as well. If you can't make it
entertaining for all, don't put it into the game.
>> As an extreme case, consider non-consentual player character
>> conflict. It has negative consequences for players. If being
>> killed by another player character was as inherently entertaining
>> as playing the game normally, PKing wouldn't be as offensive.
> Non-consensual player character conflict is exactly what I am
> targeting as a symptom of the real issue. I don't think there is
> anything inherently bad about player conflict or the consequences
> of that conflict, even when those consequences are quite
> unpleasant.
And for you, that's entertaining. For others it may not be. You
must ensure that those who are faced with the unpleasant outcomes
are happy to endure them. To do otherwise is to give a player a
reason to be discontent with your game or worse, to vote with their
feet.
> How do we give players predictablility and control so that they
> can manage their risks? Now there is an interesting problem worth
> solving.
Any player who is interested in risking in order to be entertained
does not fall into my bucket of what I consider a casual player.
Casual players are not trying to get their heartrate up. They're
just trying to tickle some neurons.
I leave the problem of risk management to other folks :)
JB
- AOL lawsuit Matt Mihaly
- AOL lawsuit John Robert Arras
- AOL lawsuit Matt Mihaly
- AOL Lawsuit John Robert Arras
- AOL Lawsuit Matt Mihaly
- AOL lawsuit Marian Griffith
- AOL lawsuit shren
- AOL lawsuit Jon Lambert
- Release and social aspect Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Release and social aspect Daniel Bendiksen
- Mining the SW:G Forums Eric L. Rhea
- Mining the SW:G Forums Trump
- [TECH] MySQL for mud databases Brian Hook
- [TECH] MySQL for mud databases ryan daum
- [TECH] MySQL for mud databases Jim S
- [TECH] MySQL for mud databases Brian Hook
- [TECH] MySQL for mud databases Jussi 'Sulka' Haro