August 2001
- [DGN] RP awards (was: Something in the water) Ananda Dawnsinger
- [DGN] RP awards (was: Something in the water) Matt Mihaly
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Matt Mihaly
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Hanz, Rob
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Travis Casey
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Dave Rickey
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Richard A. Bartle
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Koster, Raph
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling) Daniel James
- CGMud testing Chris Gray
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Eli Stevens
- TECH: STL / Heaps, David Bennett
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Travis Nixon
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Vincent Archer
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Sean K
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Sean K
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Adam Martin
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Ling Lo
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Paul Schwanz
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Chris Jones
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Kwon Ekstrom
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- TECH: STL / Heaps, shren
- TECH: STL / Heaps, Jon Lambert
- Dictionary of Body Language ling.lo@coment.dk
- Dictionary of Body Language Koster, Raph
- Where to go with the maddog page Frank Crowell
- Academic journal on computer games Jussi 'Sulka' Haro
- "The gaming situation" by Markku Eskelinen Jussi 'Sulka' Haro
- "The gaming situation" by Markku Eskelinen Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "The gaming situation" by Markku Eskelinen Madman Across the Water
- "The gaming situation" by Markku Eskelinen Matt Mihaly
- "The gaming situation" by Markku Eskelinen Travis Casey
- Non-Linear Item Combination Systems... Justin Rogers
- Rats in a cage? J C Lawrence
- Rats in a cage? J C Lawrence
- ECTS 2001 & GDC Europe Adam Martin
- ECTS 2001 & GDC Europe J C Lawrence
- Java tidbits (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Ling Lo
- Java tidbits (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Bobby Martin
- Java tidbits (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Alistair Milne
- Player Types (Was Anarchy Online) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Korean marketing effort... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Federico Di Gregorio
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Luke Carruthers
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Robin Lee Powell
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Robin Lee Powell
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Robin Lee Powell
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Robin Lee Powell
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Bobby Martin
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Miroslav Silovic
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Kwon Ekstrom
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Skotos Articles: Why Marrach Isn't the Movies #1, #2, #3, and a Coda [LONG] Christopher Allen
- [BIZ] Job on a MMORPG Dave Kennerly
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Dave Kennerly
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Richard A. Bartle
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Ian Collyer
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Communit y Feeling)) Koster, Raph
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Ling Lo
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Richard A. Bartle
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Marc Fielding
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) John Hopson
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (wasCommunity Feeling)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Adam Martin
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Erwin S. Andreasen
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was CommunityFeeling)) Dave Kennerly
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was CommunityFeeling)) Erwin S. Andreasen
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Brian Hook
- MudDev FAQ - part 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ - part 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev Faq - part 1 Marian Griffith
- Mud Dev FAQ - Part 1 Marian Griffith
- Mounts and Vehicles Greg B
- Mounts and Vehicles Justin Harvey
- Mounts and Vehicles Richard A. Bartle
- Mounts and Vehicles Ammon Lauritzen
- Mounts and Vehicles Koster, Raph
- Mounts and Vehicles susan wu
- Mounts and Vehicles Tamzen Cannoy
- Mounts and Vehicles J C Lawrence
- Mounts and Vehicles Richard A. Bartle
- Mounts and Vehicles lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- Mounts and Vehicles Frederick Nacino
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Trump
- Wilderness (AO) Peter Tyson
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Brian Hook
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / H eaps, etc.) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Justin Rogers
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / H eaps, etc.) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Dave Kennerly
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Jeremy Noetzelman
- TECH: programming languages (was: TECH: STL / Heaps, etc.) Nathan F. Yospe
- small outfit is looking for computer game designers/programmers Frank Crowell
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Marc Fielding
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Kristen L. Koster
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Kwon Ekstrom
- Pocket PC Development Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Pocket PC Development Peter Tyson
- Pocket PC Development Frank Crowell
- Pocket PC Development Peter Tyson
- Pocket PC Development Frank Crowell
- Pocket PC Development Peter Tyson
- Pocket PC Development Paul Schwanz
- Pocket PC Development Peter Tyson
- Pocket PC Development Matt Owen
- Pocket PC Development Coyote
- Pocket PC Development Frank Crowell
- Pocket PC Development Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Pocket PC Development Peter Tyson
- Pocket PC Development Ling Lo
- Re[4]: d20 Travis Casey
- Re[4]: d20 Travis Casey
- Re[4]: d20 Michael Tresca
- Re[4]: d20 Travis Casey
On Wednesday 15 August 2001 07:52 am, Michael Tresca wrote:
> Travis Casey posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 10:56 AM
>> Of course, you'll note that, to date, only one major game company
>> besides WotC has produced a d20 RPG -- thus, there's very little
>> evidence to support the idea that a d20 logo would double sales
>> of an RPG.
> Hmm, I assume you're talking about White Wolf. I imagine Alderac
> Entertainment Group and Pinnacle Entertainment Group disagree. >:)
Actually, I was thinking of Chaosium, but I was wrong -- in fact,
*no* other companies have released a d20 RPG at this point. Note
that I'm saying RPG, not supplement -- plenty of people have
released D&D supplements using the d20 STL, but no major company has
released an actual *game*.
>> It could be that the d20 logo will help things sell, but there's
>> no proof of that yet.
> All the D20 logo is providing, for good or bad, is a common gaming
> platform. It's taking it one step further than say, creating a
> Rifts computer game -- product identity in this case would be
> Rifts the RPG and thus carrying over to an electronic version.
> Instead, it's more generic. This is a new concept to the
> role-playing community -- even GURPs wasn't as pervasive and
> immediately recognizable.
I beg to differ. As I mention above, the only actual *games* that
use d20 and are widely known are WotC's D&D3 and Star Wars.
Does anyone care about the "d20 System"? We simply don't know yet.
The "d20 System" materials that people are buying are D&D materials.
We know D&D is popular and well-known, so the fact that D&D
supplements can sell is no surprise. Would the "d20 System" logo
help anyone producing a *different* game, though?
Lastly on this point, it's not a new concept. The new state of
affairs is basically the same state that used to prevail in the late
70's through mid-80's, before TSR came under new management and
started trying to sue people who were producing compatible
materials. The original Arduin books, the Bard Games "Compleat"
series, Thieves' Guild, Mayfair's Role Aids series, and others were
all D&D-compatible products, which sold mainly because they were
D&D-compatible. The only reason their makers stopped producing them
was because TSR started suing companies that were doing so.
(And, I'll add, they never won a case in court -- the other
companies had nothing approaching the resources TSR had, and could
not afford to defend themselves against the lawsuits, so they
capitulated.)
> WOTC used its marketing power to disseminate the core rulebooks,
> and since the D20 system is based off of those books, the barrier
> to entry for any game based on that same system is reduced. No
> RPG has had that level of distribution and visibility before.
AD&D has.
> This means that players know how to play your game before they
> even play it.
And you can do that regardless of the OGL and d20 STL. The D&D
mechanics are not protected -- game mechanics are not covered by
copyright, and D&D is not patented.
[snip a bit]
> I haven't seen any numbers yet, but I heard that one-third of RPG
> sales were third-party D20 products at Gen Con. If that's any
> indication, then slapping the D20 logo on your game may still have
> merit.
Since D&D is the only d20 game that people can currently make
3rd-party products for (they can't make Star Wars supplements, since
Lucasfilm hasn't licensed their various trademarks), all that proves
is that people want D&D supplements. And, as I said above, we
already knew that -- 3rd-party D&D supplements also sold very well
before TSR scared people into no longer making them.
If you're planning on basically making a D&D mud, then, the d20 STL
might do you some good -- but then again, it might not. Part of the
reason that d20 licensed games have been so successful is that WotC
has decided to release very few supplements for D&D3 themselves,
leaving the field open for the d20 licensees. As you mention above,
there are already plenty of D&D-alike fantasy computer games on the
market -- thus, the vacuum that WotC created for paper D&D
supplements, they cannot create for computer ones.
There's another factor to consider as well. The d20 System licensed
products that have been created so far, and have sold so well,
aren't games -- they're supplements and adventures for an existing
game. Many people buy them not to use "as-is", but to take what
they like from them and integrate that into their own campaigns,
creating worlds that use elements from many different products --
all compatible, because they're all for D&D. Unless major changes
are made to the way that computer RPGs are made, though, this won't
be possible to do with them -- chances are that you won't be able to
take your favorite monsters out of game X and put them into game Y,
even if they're both "d20 System" games, since the underlying system
doesn't ensure compatibility between file formats, and definitely
doesn't ensure the ability to take only certain things from file
formats.
Indeed, thinking about it, it seems to me that WotC has probably
thought about this too, and was careful to define an "interactive
game" in the d20 STL the way they did for just that reason. While
the d20 STL prohibits you from creating a computer game and using
the d20 trademarks with it, it does *not* prevent you from creating
adventures, monster packs, tile sets, etc. for a d20 computer game
(i.e., NWN) and using the d20 trademarks with *those*.
Thus, it seems that WotC may be trying to set up for the same
situation they've tried to create with paper D&D -- that no one can
create a competing game and advertise it as a "d20 System" game
without their permission, but they *can* create supplements for NWN.
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel@earthlink.net>
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) - Re[4]: d20 Michael Tresca
- Re[4]: d20 Travis Casey
- [TECH] [ObjC] : programming languages - Obj-C as opposed to Java Adam Martin
- [TECH] [ObjC] : programming languages - Obj-C as opposed to Java Bruce Mitchener
- [TECH] [ObjC] : programming languages - Obj-C as opposed to Java Brian Hook
- Chances of success (was d20 system) Bobby Martin
- Chances of success (was d20 system) Travis Casey
- Chances of success (was d20 system) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Chances of success (was d20 system) Travis Casey
- Chances of success (was d20 system) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Chances of success (was d20 system) Jon Lambert
- Chances of success (was d20 system) Kwon Ekstrom
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Robin Lee Powell
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Bruce Mitchener
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Dan Root
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Robin Lee Powell
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Miroslav Silovic
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Robin Lee Powell
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Bruce Mitchener
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Miroslav Silovic
- CoolMUD lives!, sort of. Robin Lee Powell
- MBTI vs Bartle Type (was: Personality Types) Ian Collyer
- Personality Types (was Anarchy Online (was Community Feeling)) Matt Mihaly
- Re[4]: Chances of success (was d20 system) Travis Casey
- Re[6]: d20 Travis Casey
- Re[6]: d20 rayzam
- Re[6]: d20 Bobby Martin
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #404 - 16 msgs Dr. Cat
- Personality Types Corey Crawford
- Chances of success (Bobby's algorithm) Bobby Martin
- SMAUG Code (was Personality Types) Kwon Ekstrom
- SMAUG Code (was Personality Types) Corey Crawford
- SMAUG Code (was Personality Types) Alistair Milne
- SMAUG Code (was Personality Types) Kwon Ekstrom
- SMAUG Code (was Personality Types) Miroslav Silovic
- SMAUG Code (was Personality Types) Kwon Ekstrom
- SMAUG Code (was Personality Types) Bruce Mitchener
- Re[6]: d20 Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Matt Owen
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Dan MacDonald
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Kevin Littlejohn
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Troy Fisher
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Chris Gray
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Matt Mihaly
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Lars Duening
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Dan MacDonald
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Chris Gray
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Dan MacDonald
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Kwon Ekstrom
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Jon Lambert
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Sean K
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Matt Owen
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? verb@rpn.port5.com
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Travis Casey
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Matt Owen
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Troy Fisher
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Matt Owen
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Dan MacDonald
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Matt Owen
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Bruce Mitchener
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Tess Lowe
- Writing a MUD Server in Visual Basic? Nathan F. Yospe
- TECH: .Net (was: programming languages (was: TE CH: STL / Heaps, etc.)) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Pocket PC Development Peter Tyson
- Mental Nudges (was Pocket PC development) Paul Schwanz
- Mental Nudges (was Pocket PC development) Frank Crowell
- Mental Nudges (was Pocket PC development) Ian Collyer
- MojoWorld, or a new product for generated content Bruce Mitchener
- MojoWorld, or a new product for generated content Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- MUDs as an educational tool in impoverished regions? Eric Rhea
- ColdC documentation (SMAUG Code) brandon@roguetrader.com
- MUD to include space and more Daniel Bendiksen
- MUD to include space and more Brian Hook
- MUD to include space and more Andrew Norman
- MUD to include space and more David Loeser
- MUD to include space and more Phillip Lenhardt
- MUD to include space and more shren
- [DSN] Why Permadeath is Irrelevant Paul Schwanz
- [DSN] Why Permadeath is Irrelevant Robin Lee Powell
- [DSN] Why Permadeath is Irrelevant John Buehler
- [DSN] Why Permadeath is Irrelevant Paul Schwanz
- [DSN] Why Permadeath is Irrelevant Daniel Bendiksen
- [DSN] Why Permadeath is Irrelevant John Buehler
- AOL lawsuit Matt Mihaly
- AOL lawsuit John Robert Arras
- AOL lawsuit Matt Mihaly
- AOL Lawsuit John Robert Arras
- AOL Lawsuit Matt Mihaly
- AOL lawsuit Marian Griffith
- AOL lawsuit shren
- AOL lawsuit Jon Lambert
- Release and social aspect Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Release and social aspect Daniel Bendiksen
- Mining the SW:G Forums Eric L. Rhea
- Mining the SW:G Forums Trump
- [TECH] MySQL for mud databases Brian Hook
- [TECH] MySQL for mud databases ryan daum
- [TECH] MySQL for mud databases Jim S
- [TECH] MySQL for mud databases Brian Hook
- [TECH] MySQL for mud databases Jussi 'Sulka' Haro