August 1997
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Jon A. Lambert
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Jon A. Lambert
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features Jon A. Lambert
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- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Koster, Raph
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Jon A. Lambert
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
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- New Topic: Butthead features Martin Keegan
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- New Topic: Butthead features Martin Keegan
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- PirateMUD and CSL Niklas Elmqvist
- PirateMUD and CSL Chris Gray
- PirateMUD and CSL Koster, Raph
- PirateMUD and CSL clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- PirateMUD and CSL Jon A. Lambert
- PirateMUD and CSL clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- PirateMUD and CSL clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds Michael Hohensee
- Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds Cynbe ru Taren
- Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds Michael Hohensee
- Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds Shawn Halpenny
- Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Graphic MUDS/perspectives Koster, Raph
- Ultima Online/Generalized AI Koster, Raph
- Reputation, was butthead features Koster, Raph
- Reputation, was butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- Reputation, was butthead features Koster, Kristen
- Reputation, was butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- Reputation, was butthead features Adam Wiggins
- Graphic MUDS/perspectives Jeff Kesselman
- Generalized AI Resend Koster, Raph
- Generalized AI Resend clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Interview with Richard Bartle clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Generalized AI last try! Koster, Raph
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Chris Gray
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Michael Hohensee
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Michael Hohensee
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- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Richard Woolcock
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Nathan Yospe
- Mud Languages Greg Munt
- MUD languages Chris Gray
- MUD languages clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Mud Languages Chris Gray
- Mud Languages Nathan Yospe
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- Mud Languages Greg Munt
- Mud Languages Captain Burrito
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- Mud Languages Jeff Kesselman
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- Mud Languages coder@ibm.net
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- sorry, cut off, was PirateMUD and CSL Koster, Raph
- Introduction Dan Armstrong
- Introduction clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Introduction John G.
- Introduction clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Introduction Dan Armstrong
- Introduction clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Introduction Michael Hohensee
- Mud Languages (Introesque) ##Make Nylander
- Mud Languages (Introesque) ##Make Nylander
- Mud Languages (Introesque) Nathan Yospe
- Quad-trees/Oct-trees Michael Hohensee
- Quad-trees/Oct-trees Dan Armstrong
- node-based 3D coord systems Nathan Yospe
- Signing off... Brandon Van Every
- The 'Socialiser' problem Greg Munt
- The 'Socialiser' problem Nathan Yospe
- The 'Socialiser' problem Greg Munt
- The 'Socialiser' problem Nathan Yospe
- The 'Socialiser' problem Greg Munt
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- The 'Socialiser' problem Matt Chatterley
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- The 'Socialiser' problem Jeff Kesselman
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- The 'Socialiser' problem Matt Chatterley
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- Release out! Chris Gray
- Dots in a name? Martin Keegan
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- Dots in a name? Matt Chatterley
- Dots in a name? Martin Keegan
- Dots in a name? Matt Chatterley
- Dots in a name? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Languages: "strong" vs "weak" Chris Gray
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- New to this mailing list Richard Woolcock
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- New to this mailing list Jon A. Lambert
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- NPC Ecologies [was 'New to this mailing list'] Greg Munt
- DemonScape clawrenc@cup.hp.com
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- Finding Space Michael Hohensee
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- Finding Space clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- OT: test Odysseus Laertes
- Fuzion - RPG game system Jon Lambert
- Character evolution Richard Woolcock
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- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution Richard Woolcock
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution Richard Woolcock
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Koster, Raph
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
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- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Character evolution Richard Woolcock
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- OT: test Jon A. Lambert
- Fuzion Jon A. Lambert
- (subject missing) Maddog Worlds
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- Fuzion - Game System Frank Crowell
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- Fuzion - Game System Jeff Kesselman
- legal mumbo jumbo Jeff Kesselman
- Bladder Control Jeff Kesselman
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- Collision Detection Cynbe ru Taren
- Looking for books... Greg Munt
- Looking for books... Jeff Kesselman
- Looking for books... Cynbe ru Taren
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- Looking for books... Jeff Kesselman
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- Looking for books... Jeff Kesselman
- Looking for books... clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Looking for books... clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Looking for books... coder@ibm.net
- Looking for books... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Looking for books... coder@ibm.net
- Looking for books... Jon A. Lambert
- Looking for books... clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Re: Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
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- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
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- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
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- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Felix A. Croes
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Chris Gray
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution ##Make Nylander
- Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Character evolution Chris Gray
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- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Maddy
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution Ned Lovely
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Travis Casey
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Chris Gray
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution Travis Casey
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Travis Casey
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution The Eternal City
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution The Eternal City
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Brian Price
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- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Nathan Yospe
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
In <199708312049.3500100@bedford.net>, on 08/31/97
at 04:06 PM, "Brian Price" <blprice@bedford.net> said:
>I have at various times toyed with the idea of a hard Sci-Fi mud
>(sans psi aka magic) borrowing heavily from the Traveller rpg for the
> overall game system. I would like to implement such an mud if I
>could get around a few nagging problems such as:
> If players have access to starships you _rapidly_
>run out of areas. This leaves you with three basic choices:
>A. do not allow players access to starships
>B. use a plot mechanism which justifies a finite univerese
>C. use a random area generator
I'd note that B is a superset of A. Consider:
Starship travel is only accomplished by hitching rides on alien
space ships. Human/player travellers have no control over
destination, have no understanding of the technology used, and more or
less hop on and hope.
This could be taken as a direct extension of the old, "Of Mice and
Men" where 120' aliens have taken over the earth, never noticing Homo
Sap's prior occupation or their spirited defence via nukes etc. Homo
Sap. now lives the insulation inside the walls of their buildings, and
is treated much the way we now treat cockroaches living in our walls
(poison, bug spray, bug bombs etc). Homo Sap. escapes Earth by
hitching rides on alien space ships as vermin in the walls, plants,
packing cases, etc.
Startship travel is currently only possible between known defined
locations. Various models come to mind:
Wormhole variation -- there are various "special" points in space,
the distance between which can be travelled in some special manner in
very little time. Specific points are linked to specific other
points. As such the set of visitable areas is lmited by the
pre-defined network of point relations.
Beacon/echo variations -- FTL travel is accomplished via matter
casting between a sation and a remote receiver. The receiver
re-assembles the transmission into the original objects. This is
largely a variation on a wormhole method with the addendum that you
can require the remote receving station to have to be sent their by
sub-light means.
Hitchhiking -- see vermin scenario above, this is a variation.
Man has sub-light space travel. A species of space faring beast is
discovered ala Niven's Slaver StageTrees which migrates by some
unknown FTL method between multiple star systems. (A complex
interstellar breeding pattern could be the key, or an interstellar
seeding pattern ala StageTrees could also do). Homo Sap. then hitches
rides with the animals/plants/whatever when they go inter-stellar.
Pet -- Homo Sap is conveyed about a limited section of the galaxy
by friendly aliens. All travel is by alien ships which are controlled
by aliens. All attempts to mess with aliens results in spacing. This
is a variation on Hitchiking except for presentation.
These are all plot mechanisms at the base. More simply the question
to me derives to a choice between unrestricted interstellar travel,
and restricted (predefined or limited) destinations.
Note that this is not unique to an SF MUD. Consider the case of a
standard fantasy MUD which attempts to define the entire surface of a
planet. Who the is going to write areas, topologies, etc for an
entire planet? Going to use invisible barriers, "You can't go that
way," when they hit an undefined area? The problem is scale, not
mechanics.
>Choice A could lead to a very viable game, perhaps along the lines of
> an aftermath scenario.. ie. starships don't exist. However this is
>personally unsatisfying as part of the lure for me of sci-fi is the
>device of travelling between the stars.
I don't see (as above) that not doing A precludes hainve interstellar
travel.
>Choice B could be done by assuming a wormhole or jumpgate style of
>interstellar flight. While this works, it undermines the ability of
>pcs to move between differing political entities since system
>entry/exit points are easily defended/controlled.
Not necessarily. If the control point is not locational (cf the above
StageTree example), then the resource is a lot tougher to
control/limit. Consider the case of the family which has a large
secret grove of StageTrees hidden off in the boondocks...
>Choice C seems at first to merely be a design problem, but assuming
>you solve the design problem of generating 'realistic' worlds/systems
> randomly, you now have a storage problem... your universe file will
> become _HUGE_.
Use predetermined seeds for your random number generator. The
standard method is to have the seed derived from the coordiantes. A
standard extension is to have an overlay sparse array which provides
weightings to the seed deriving function such that you make
artificially make, say, class M stars guaranteed more populous in one
area, or higher oxygen counts ...etc.
>Even assuming you manage to solve the problems associated with one of
>the above choices in a logically consistant yet interesting manner,
>you are still left with huge game design problems (from a mud
>standpoint). The plot device of magic easily sidesteps many
>problems that a hard sci-fi mud would need to deal with logically.
What difficulties would you see with the humans as vermin or StageTree
scenarios?
>I think the task of creating an enjoyable and realistic semi-hard
>sci-fi mud is doable but it would seem to be a _very_ difficult task
>to do it well.
I suspect that the real work is in the scenario definition, not the
implementation. High magic worlds typically are balanced the other
way -- the work is in the implemenation, and the definition is
trivial.
--
J C Lawrence Internet: claw@null.net
(Contractor) Internet: coder@ibm.net
---------------(*) Internet: clawrenc@cup.hp.com
...Honorary Member Clan McFUD -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...
- Character evolution Shawn Halpenny
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- OT: Mortality coder@ibm.net
- Re:) Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution [off topic] coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution [off topic] Miroslav Silovic
- **sigh** OOP wars and defining RDBMS Jeff Kesselman
- **sigh** OOP wars and defining RDBMS Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- **sigh** OOP wars and defining RDBMS Jeff Kesselman
- **sigh** OOP wars and defining RDBMS Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- **sigh** OOP wars and defining RDBMS Jeff Kesselman
- **sigh** OOP wars and defining RDBMS Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Re:) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- World full of heros Jeff Kesselman
- World full of heros Marian Griffith
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books. Jon A. Lambert
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- OT: Re:) Jon A. Lambert
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Nathan Yospe
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Miroslav Silovic
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Travis Casey
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Travis Casey
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Adam Wiggins
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Adam Wiggins
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Nathan Yospe
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Shawn Halpenny
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Chris Gray
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Nathan Yospe
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Chris Gray
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Chris Gray
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Chris Gray
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Brian Price
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Travis Casey
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jeff Kesselman
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Brian Price
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jeff Kesselman
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Travis Casey
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jeff Kesselman
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Travis Casey
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jeff Kesselman
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Brian Price
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jeff Kesselman
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Travis Casey
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jeff Kesselman
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Michael Hohensee
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jeff Kesselman
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jeff Kesselman
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Matt Chatterley
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Dan Shiovitz
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jon A. Lambert
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Shawn Halpenny
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Maddy
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Shawn Halpenny
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Adam Wiggins
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Travis S. Casey
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Travis S. Casey
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Nathan Yospe
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jon A. Lambert
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Dan Shiovitz
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects clawrenc@cup.hp.com