August 1997
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Jon A. Lambert
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Jon A. Lambert
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features Jon A. Lambert
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Koster, Raph
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Jon A. Lambert
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Jon A. Lambert
- New Topic: Butthead features Martin Keegan
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Richard Woolcock
- New Topic: Butthead features Martin Keegan
- New Topic: Butthead features coder@ibm.net
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features Brandon Cline
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features Koster, Raph
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Martin Keegan
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Adam Wiggins
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- PirateMUD and CSL Niklas Elmqvist
- PirateMUD and CSL Chris Gray
- PirateMUD and CSL Koster, Raph
- PirateMUD and CSL clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- PirateMUD and CSL Jon A. Lambert
- PirateMUD and CSL clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- PirateMUD and CSL clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds Michael Hohensee
- Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds Cynbe ru Taren
- Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds Michael Hohensee
- Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds Shawn Halpenny
- Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Graphic MUDS/perspectives Koster, Raph
- Ultima Online/Generalized AI Koster, Raph
- Reputation, was butthead features Koster, Raph
- Reputation, was butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- Reputation, was butthead features Koster, Kristen
- Reputation, was butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- Reputation, was butthead features Adam Wiggins
- Graphic MUDS/perspectives Jeff Kesselman
- Generalized AI Resend Koster, Raph
- Generalized AI Resend clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Interview with Richard Bartle clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Generalized AI last try! Koster, Raph
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Chris Gray
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Michael Hohensee
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Michael Hohensee
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Jon Leonard
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Jeff Kesselman
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Chris Gray
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Michael Hohensee
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Cynbe ru Taren
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Richard Woolcock
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Nathan Yospe
- Mud Languages Greg Munt
- MUD languages Chris Gray
- MUD languages clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Mud Languages Chris Gray
- Mud Languages Nathan Yospe
- Mud Languages Chris Gray
- Mud Languages Greg Munt
- Mud Languages Captain Burrito
- Mud Languages Miroslav Silovic
- Mud Languages Cynbe ru Taren
- Mud Languages Jeff Kesselman
- Mud Languages Chris Gray
- Mud Languages clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Mud Languages coder@ibm.net
- Mud Languages Jeff Kesselman
- Mud Languages clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- sorry, cut off, was PirateMUD and CSL Koster, Raph
- Introduction Dan Armstrong
- Introduction clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Introduction John G.
- Introduction clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Introduction Dan Armstrong
- Introduction clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Introduction Michael Hohensee
- Mud Languages (Introesque) ##Make Nylander
- Mud Languages (Introesque) ##Make Nylander
- Mud Languages (Introesque) Nathan Yospe
- Quad-trees/Oct-trees Michael Hohensee
- Quad-trees/Oct-trees Dan Armstrong
- node-based 3D coord systems Nathan Yospe
- Signing off... Brandon Van Every
- The 'Socialiser' problem Greg Munt
- The 'Socialiser' problem Nathan Yospe
- The 'Socialiser' problem Greg Munt
- The 'Socialiser' problem Nathan Yospe
- The 'Socialiser' problem Greg Munt
- The 'Socialiser' problem Nathan Yospe
- The 'Socialiser' problem Matt Chatterley
- The 'Socialiser' problem Chris Gray
- The 'Socialiser' problem Jeff Kesselman
- The 'Socialiser' problem Miroslav Silovic
- The 'Socialiser' problem Martin Keegan
- The 'Socialiser' problem Matt Chatterley
- The 'Socialiser' problem clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Release out! Chris Gray
- Dots in a name? Martin Keegan
- Dots in a name? Chris Gray
- Dots in a name? Matt Chatterley
- Dots in a name? Martin Keegan
- Dots in a name? Matt Chatterley
- Dots in a name? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Languages: "strong" vs "weak" Chris Gray
- porting question Chris Gray
- New to this mailing list Richard Woolcock
- New to this mailing list Chris Gray
- New to this mailing list Matt Chatterley
- New to this mailing list Richard Woolcock
- New to this mailing list Chris Gray
- New to this mailing list Marian Griffith
- New to this mailing list Martin Keegan
- New to this mailing list Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- New to this mailing list Jeff Kesselman
- New to this mailing list Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- New to this mailing list Jon A. Lambert
- New to this mailing list Jeff Kesselman
- New to this mailing list Jon A. Lambert
- NPC Ecologies [was 'New to this mailing list'] Greg Munt
- DemonScape clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Evolution of The Mud Tree Greg Munt
- OT: Invite Batzing? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: ButtheadS and Jurisprudance Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: ButtheadS and Jurisprudance clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: ButtheadS and Jurisprudance Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: ButtheadS and Jurisprudance clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Finding Space Michael Hohensee
- Finding Space Shawn Halpenny
- Finding Space Nathan Yospe
- Finding Space Chris Gray
- Finding Space Ned Lovely
- Finding Space Ned Lovely
- Finding Space Chris Gray
- Finding Space Nathan Yospe
- Finding Space Michael Hohensee
- Finding Space clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- OT: test Odysseus Laertes
- Fuzion - RPG game system Jon Lambert
- Character evolution Richard Woolcock
- Character evolution Dan Shiovitz
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution Richard Woolcock
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution Richard Woolcock
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution Richard Woolcock
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Koster, Raph
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Character evolution Richard Woolcock
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- OT: test Jon A. Lambert
- Fuzion Jon A. Lambert
- (subject missing) Maddog Worlds
- Fuzion - Game System Jon A. Lambert
- Fuzion - Game System Frank Crowell
- Fuzion - Game System Jeff Kesselman
- Fuzion - Game System Jeff Kesselman
- Fuzion - Game System Jon A. Lambert
- Fuzion - Game System Jeff Kesselman
- legal mumbo jumbo Jeff Kesselman
- Bladder Control Jeff Kesselman
- Bladder Control Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Collision Detection Cynbe ru Taren
- Looking for books... Greg Munt
- Looking for books... Jeff Kesselman
- Looking for books... Cynbe ru Taren
- Looking for books... Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Looking for books... Jeff Kesselman
- Looking for books... Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Looking for books... Jeff Kesselman
- Looking for books... clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Looking for books... clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Looking for books... coder@ibm.net
- Looking for books... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Looking for books... coder@ibm.net
- Looking for books... Jon A. Lambert
- Looking for books... clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Re: Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution Nathan Yospe
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Felix A. Croes
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Chris Gray
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution ##Make Nylander
- Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Character evolution Chris Gray
- Character evolution Nathan Yospe
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Maddy
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution Ned Lovely
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Travis Casey
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Chris Gray
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution Travis Casey
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Travis Casey
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution The Eternal City
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution The Eternal City
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Brian Price
- Character evolution Travis Casey
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Nathan Yospe
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Shawn Halpenny
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Alignment Jon A. Lambert
- Alignment Richard Woolcock
- Alignment Jeff Kesselman
- Alignment Jeff Kesselman
- Alignment Jon A. Lambert
- Alignment Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Alignment Ling
- Alignment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Alignment adam@treyarch.com
- Alignment Spin
- DESIGN: R-Trees (fwd) Greg Munt
- DESIGN: R-Trees (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Alignment & Introductions lapsos
- Alignment & Introductions Travis Casey
- Alignment & Introductions Matt Chatterley
- Alignment & Introductions clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Foods (was Character evolution) Marian Griffith
- Foods (was Character evolution) Matt Chatterley
- Foods (was Character evolution) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Foods (was Character evolution) Matt Chatterley
- Comments on MUDs from Shadists clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Inebriation Jon A. Lambert
- Language design Greg Munt
- Language design Jeff Kesselman
- Language design Chris Gray
- Language design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Language design Chris Gray
- {rape] lets drop it Jeff Kesselman
- {rape] lets drop it Alex Oren
- {rape] lets drop it Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Invitations coder@ibm.net
- Invitations coder@ibm.net
- Poisons (was Foods) Koster, Kristen
- Poisons (was Foods) Travis Casey
- Poisons (was Foods) Matt Chatterley
- Poisons (was Foods) Jon A. Lambert
- META: Attributions and Eudora clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- META: Attributions and Eudora Jon A. Lambert
- Free DB list coder@ibm.net
- New topic: AI and NPCs Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- New topic: AI and NPCs Travis Casey
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- New topic: AI and NPCs Travis Casey
- New topic: AI and NPCs Adam Wiggins
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- New topic: AI and NPCs Travis Casey
- New topic: AI and NPCs Adam Wiggins
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- New topic: AI and NPCs Adam Wiggins
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- New topic: AI and NPCs clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- New topic: AI and NPCs clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New topic: AI and NPCs Matt Chatterley
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jon A. Lambert
- New topic: AI and NPCs Matt Chatterley
- New topic: AI and NPCs clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New topic: AI and NPCs Matt Chatterley
- New topic: AI and NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- New topic: AI and NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- New topic: AI and NPCs Matt Chatterley
- New topic: AI and NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- New topic: AI and NPCs Ned Lovely
- New topic: AI and NPCs Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- New topic: AI and NPCs Nathan Yospe
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jon A. Lambert
- New topic: AI and NPCs Adam Wiggins
- New topic: AI and NPCs Nathan Yospe
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jon A. Lambert
- New topic: AI and NPCs Nathan Yospe
- New topic: AI and NPCs Alex Oren
- New topic: AI and NPCs Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jon A. Lambert
- New topic: AI and NPCs coder@ibm.net
- New topic: AI and NPCs clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New topic: AI and NPCs coder@ibm.net
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- Re: clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Rape Threads Nathan Yospe
- Rape Threads Jon A. Lambert
- Rape Threads Nathan Yospe
- Rape Threads Robin Carey
- Rape Threads Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- "Social control", was butthead features Koster, Raph
- "Social control", was butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- "Social control", was butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "Social control", was butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution [off topic] Alex Oren
- (fwd) NEW: multi-user VRML world clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- (fwd) NEW: multi-user VRML world Brandon Gillespie
- (fwd) NEW: multi-user VRML world Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- (fwd) NEW: multi-user VRML world coder@ibm.net
- MUD universe Felix A. Croes
- MUD universe Chris Gray
- MUD universe clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- MUD universe S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- MUD universe Nathan Yospe
- MUD Universe S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- MUD Universe Nathan Yospe
- MUD Universe S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- MUD Universe clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- MUD universe coder@ibm.net
- MUD universe Felix A. Croes
- MUD Universe Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD universe clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- MUD universe Felix A. Croes
- MUD universe Maddy
- MUD universe clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- MUD universe Felix A. Croes
- MUD universe clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- MUD universe clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Chris Gray
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) coder@ibm.net
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Adam Wiggins
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Adam Wiggins
[Ola:]
> [Adam:]
> >Hum...assuming you have good base functionality (resolving references/pointer
> >to other objects is a prime issue) it should be difficult to make blunders.
>
> References were the ones I was thinking about.
I still don't understand. If there's a bug in the code, there's a bug
in the code. This doesn't have much to do with saving and loading, assuming
of course that your persistence and reference resolvers are solid.
> >Well, possible, but simple sanity checking on load should take care of
> >most problems. If a field was set to an out-of-range value, that should
> >be rememdied when it's loaded back in. This is just a good idea in
> >general, in case the data files get corrupted by external means.
>
> This is one of the things that you typically would do when you write your
> own load/save functions. A persistent object-store should supposedly
> "free" you from these kinds of things, but it doesn't. That's what I
> was trying to point out...
Perhaps you need to spend some time dusting up your persistence code, then.
We have ranges and default values for every possible field, and it works
out basically like this: if the field is out of range, set it to default.
If the field does not exist, set it to default. When resolving references,
check to see if it points to a valid object. If not, set it to the null value.
One place this doesn't work is dependant fields. For example, you have a
reference on the character object which points to their current weapon object.
Somewhere else you have a pointer to what's in their hands. If these two
pointers are not equal to each other, bad things happen. This is, IMO, bad
coding. This will cause you *far* more problems than just in the area
of persistence.
Another thing is that we have it set up so that some things have their
restore functionality basically just rebuild the thing from scratch. This
will cover cases where you have some sort of reference like the above for
purposes of speed - the restore functionality for the current weapon field
just says to point it at whatever's in their hands. (I still tend to not
like this, but you could certainly do it.)
Of course, I have little experience with in-language persistence. We have
our own handler for all of this: when you set up a field you just define
its type, default value, range, name, and possibly some other things like
units (distance/temperature/time/weight) and the list of enumerations
if it's an enumerated value (ie, a weapontype chosen from a list like
"axe", "polearm", "sword"..)
This allows us to do everything we like, including writing a nicely
formated world file that we can go and fiddle with if we so desire. (Ie,
if some sort of corruption happened that was so bad that the persistence
handler couldn't recover from it.)
> >Why? Unless the base system is not sound, it can take large projects
> >from impossible to merely daunting.
>
> Because I want control over my object structure. I wouldn't trust the
> persistence mechanisms I've seen as the only way of storing vital
> information, like scenery and user-profiles. I want to be able to make
So write your own. Ours was pitifully easy to write - after I did it
(one evening's work) I was slapping my forehead and asking myself why
in the hell we hadn't done that earlier. Let me tell you, though, I vastly
enjoyed deleting approximately 1,000 lines of special-purpose load/save
code and replacing it with a 200 line handler that had more functionality
and better error-checking.
> major changes (perhaps for efficiency reasons) in my datastructures
> without too much trouble. But of course, in a large project you might
> be able to use persistance for distribution of entire "meshes" of objects.
Here's a way to look at this whole thing:
<JCL mode ON>
A mud world should, ideally, never crash or reboot.
A persistent DB is loaded exactly as it was before the crash or reboot.
From the viewpoint of anyone in the world, a crash or reboot will appear
to be a minor pause which leaves the world unchanged, as opposed to some
sort of massive reset of the world.
Ergo, a persistent DB causes the mud world to reach the ideal state
(see #1) without having to rely on never crashing or rebooting.
> >> (2)The thought "I am designing a world" is your best friend and worst
> >This seems to imply that a complex world is bad thing?
> >I write PC games at work; I get a bellyfull of super-simplified worlds.
>
> Now, isn't that interesting? Games is probably an area where complexity
> is a goal (puzzles etc), but only "fun" complexity. Ok, so I should make
> it more clear: It is desirable with a lot of variation in a virtual world,
> but you don't want more mechanisms than neccessary. By being "smart" you
> may keep complexity down by inventing mechanisms that covers more than
> one field. So essentially you want to keep code complexity and use interface
> complexity low, without sacrificing the perceived richness of the world
> too much.
Of course, although I look at it the other way around. I know exactly how
rich of a world I want; it's up to me to try to create that world with
a minimum of code, CPU time, memory overhead, and effort on the part of
the world creators.
> >With my spare time I want to do something *really* interesting.
> >Of course, complexity of a world doesn't necessarily trace back to
> >complexity of code. My own goal is to create as complex a world as
> >possible with as simple and elegant a system as possible.
>
> Define "a complex world"!? A near-random world would be truly complex,
> wouldn't it? :-)
No. The kind of complexity I desire is related to the interaction of the
elements within the world, as opposed to something about the elements
themselves. In fact, I prefer that the elements be as simple as possible
in order to combine with other elements in as many ways as possible.
Thus, a random world only maximizes the number of elements in the world
while minimizing the number of interactions.
> Yeah, it might, although some probably run hobby projects because they want
> as many happy users as possible. Some do it out of research interests.
Well this is true, but IMO these people are the ones who put up stock muds
in hopes of getting a large playerbase. The true pioneers tend to cause
people to recoil in fear at first (as they tend to do when confronted
with anything slightly different from what they are used to) but over time
a few brave souls find out that it's quite a bit better, on the whole, than
what they were used to before.
> I've got a feeling most people do it for the sake of getting the power though.
> (Controlling a world! Rule... :-) I think that may be the one big difference
Heh, well I was cured of that by my time as immortals on other muds. Admining
is thankless, difficult, and frequently dull work. The only time I expect
to hang around on my own mud is playing my mortals.
> between professionals and hobbyists, a professional wanting to rule the world
> and his users ought to loose his job...
Yup...well, you get paid to put up with the BS I mentioned above.
Not a bad trade-off, all in all...still tough however.
> If this is the case, then the only way hobbyists can contribute to the field
> is by trying out totally new concepts (going way beyond another RPG style
> MUD)... Focusing on minor issues like "alignment" is not going to move the
> field by an order of magnitude. I just think it's sad that so many people
> spend so much effort into minor issues, when there are so many new things to
> explore out there.
Agreed, although keep listening to what goes on here or better yet grab
some old digests. I can't think of any element of creating muds that hasn't
been discussed in exhaustive detail at one time or another; the topics
range from the very specific (alignment, as you mentioned above) to the
very general (discussing the different sorts of people who play muds,
writing underlying physical models, or event-based muds). - MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Adam Wiggins
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) coder@ibm.net
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) coder@ibm.net
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Brian Price
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jon A. Lambert
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Chris Gray
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for coder@ibm.net
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Chris Gray
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Chris Gray
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Chris Gray
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jon A. Lambert
- MUD Design Fundamentals(Was: Looking for Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jon A. Lambert
- MUD Design Fundamentals(Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals(Was: Looking for Jon A. Lambert
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jon A. Lambert
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jon A. Lambert
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Miroslav Silovic
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for coder@ibm.net
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for coder@ibm.net
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jeff Kesselman
- Re: Adam Wiggins
- Re: Marian Griffith
- Users want sexy muds, not rape... (Re:) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- OT: Mortality coder@ibm.net
- Re:) Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution [off topic] coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution [off topic] Miroslav Silovic
- **sigh** OOP wars and defining RDBMS Jeff Kesselman
- **sigh** OOP wars and defining RDBMS Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- **sigh** OOP wars and defining RDBMS Jeff Kesselman
- **sigh** OOP wars and defining RDBMS Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- **sigh** OOP wars and defining RDBMS Jeff Kesselman
- **sigh** OOP wars and defining RDBMS Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Re:) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- World full of heros Jeff Kesselman
- World full of heros Marian Griffith
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books. Jon A. Lambert
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- OT: Re:) Jon A. Lambert
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Nathan Yospe
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Miroslav Silovic
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Travis Casey
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Travis Casey
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Adam Wiggins
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Adam Wiggins
- Hard Sci-fi Muds was Character Evolution Nathan Yospe
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Shawn Halpenny
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Chris Gray
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Nathan Yospe
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Chris Gray
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Chris Gray
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Brian Price
- Hard Sci-fi muds was Character evolution Chris Gray
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Brian Price
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Travis Casey
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jeff Kesselman
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Brian Price
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jeff Kesselman
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Travis Casey
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jeff Kesselman
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Travis Casey
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jeff Kesselman
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Brian Price
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jeff Kesselman
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Travis Casey
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jeff Kesselman
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Michael Hohensee
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jeff Kesselman
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jeff Kesselman
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Matt Chatterley
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Dan Shiovitz
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jon A. Lambert
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Shawn Halpenny
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Maddy
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Shawn Halpenny
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Adam Wiggins
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Travis S. Casey
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Travis S. Casey
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Nathan Yospe
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Jon A. Lambert
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects Dan Shiovitz
- Modeling spells/skills as collections of affects clawrenc@cup.hp.com