August 1997
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Jon A. Lambert
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Jon A. Lambert
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features Jon A. Lambert
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Koster, Raph
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Jon A. Lambert
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Jon A. Lambert
- New Topic: Butthead features Martin Keegan
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Richard Woolcock
- New Topic: Butthead features Martin Keegan
- New Topic: Butthead features coder@ibm.net
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features Brandon Cline
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features Koster, Raph
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Matt Chatterley
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: Butthead features Martin Keegan
- New Topic: Butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: Butthead features Adam Wiggins
- New Topic: Butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- PirateMUD and CSL Niklas Elmqvist
- PirateMUD and CSL Chris Gray
- PirateMUD and CSL Koster, Raph
- PirateMUD and CSL clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- PirateMUD and CSL Jon A. Lambert
- PirateMUD and CSL clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- PirateMUD and CSL clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds Michael Hohensee
- Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds Cynbe ru Taren
- Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds Michael Hohensee
- Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds Shawn Halpenny
- Sparse Arrays and co-ordinate based worlds clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Graphic MUDS/perspectives Koster, Raph
- Ultima Online/Generalized AI Koster, Raph
- Reputation, was butthead features Koster, Raph
- Reputation, was butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- Reputation, was butthead features Koster, Kristen
- Reputation, was butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- Reputation, was butthead features Adam Wiggins
- Graphic MUDS/perspectives Jeff Kesselman
- Generalized AI Resend Koster, Raph
- Generalized AI Resend clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Interview with Richard Bartle clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Generalized AI last try! Koster, Raph
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Chris Gray
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Michael Hohensee
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Michael Hohensee
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Jon Leonard
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Jeff Kesselman
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Chris Gray
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Michael Hohensee
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Cynbe ru Taren
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Richard Woolcock
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Spellcaster, or Waving Hands Nathan Yospe
- Mud Languages Greg Munt
- MUD languages Chris Gray
- MUD languages clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Mud Languages Chris Gray
- Mud Languages Nathan Yospe
- Mud Languages Chris Gray
- Mud Languages Greg Munt
- Mud Languages Captain Burrito
- Mud Languages Miroslav Silovic
- Mud Languages Cynbe ru Taren
- Mud Languages Jeff Kesselman
- Mud Languages Chris Gray
- Mud Languages clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Mud Languages coder@ibm.net
- Mud Languages Jeff Kesselman
- Mud Languages clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- sorry, cut off, was PirateMUD and CSL Koster, Raph
- Introduction Dan Armstrong
- Introduction clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Introduction John G.
- Introduction clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Introduction Dan Armstrong
- Introduction clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Introduction Michael Hohensee
- Mud Languages (Introesque) ##Make Nylander
- Mud Languages (Introesque) ##Make Nylander
- Mud Languages (Introesque) Nathan Yospe
- Quad-trees/Oct-trees Michael Hohensee
- Quad-trees/Oct-trees Dan Armstrong
- node-based 3D coord systems Nathan Yospe
- Signing off... Brandon Van Every
- The 'Socialiser' problem Greg Munt
- The 'Socialiser' problem Nathan Yospe
- The 'Socialiser' problem Greg Munt
- The 'Socialiser' problem Nathan Yospe
- The 'Socialiser' problem Greg Munt
- The 'Socialiser' problem Nathan Yospe
- The 'Socialiser' problem Matt Chatterley
- The 'Socialiser' problem Chris Gray
- The 'Socialiser' problem Jeff Kesselman
- The 'Socialiser' problem Miroslav Silovic
- The 'Socialiser' problem Martin Keegan
- The 'Socialiser' problem Matt Chatterley
- The 'Socialiser' problem clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Release out! Chris Gray
- Dots in a name? Martin Keegan
- Dots in a name? Chris Gray
- Dots in a name? Matt Chatterley
- Dots in a name? Martin Keegan
- Dots in a name? Matt Chatterley
- Dots in a name? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Languages: "strong" vs "weak" Chris Gray
- porting question Chris Gray
- New to this mailing list Richard Woolcock
- New to this mailing list Chris Gray
- New to this mailing list Matt Chatterley
- New to this mailing list Richard Woolcock
- New to this mailing list Chris Gray
- New to this mailing list Marian Griffith
- New to this mailing list Martin Keegan
- New to this mailing list Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- New to this mailing list Jeff Kesselman
- New to this mailing list Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- New to this mailing list Jon A. Lambert
- New to this mailing list Jeff Kesselman
- New to this mailing list Jon A. Lambert
- NPC Ecologies [was 'New to this mailing list'] Greg Munt
- DemonScape clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Evolution of The Mud Tree Greg Munt
- OT: Invite Batzing? clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: ButtheadS and Jurisprudance Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: ButtheadS and Jurisprudance clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New Topic: ButtheadS and Jurisprudance Jeff Kesselman
- New Topic: ButtheadS and Jurisprudance clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Finding Space Michael Hohensee
- Finding Space Shawn Halpenny
- Finding Space Nathan Yospe
- Finding Space Chris Gray
- Finding Space Ned Lovely
- Finding Space Ned Lovely
- Finding Space Chris Gray
- Finding Space Nathan Yospe
- Finding Space Michael Hohensee
- Finding Space clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- OT: test Odysseus Laertes
- Fuzion - RPG game system Jon Lambert
- Character evolution Richard Woolcock
- Character evolution Dan Shiovitz
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution Richard Woolcock
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution Richard Woolcock
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution Richard Woolcock
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Koster, Raph
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Character evolution Richard Woolcock
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- OT: test Jon A. Lambert
- Fuzion Jon A. Lambert
- (subject missing) Maddog Worlds
- Fuzion - Game System Jon A. Lambert
- Fuzion - Game System Frank Crowell
- Fuzion - Game System Jeff Kesselman
- Fuzion - Game System Jeff Kesselman
- Fuzion - Game System Jon A. Lambert
- Fuzion - Game System Jeff Kesselman
- legal mumbo jumbo Jeff Kesselman
- Bladder Control Jeff Kesselman
- Bladder Control Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Collision Detection Cynbe ru Taren
- Looking for books... Greg Munt
- Looking for books... Jeff Kesselman
- Looking for books... Cynbe ru Taren
- Looking for books... Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Looking for books... Jeff Kesselman
- Looking for books... Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Looking for books... Jeff Kesselman
- Looking for books... clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Looking for books... clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Looking for books... coder@ibm.net
- Looking for books... Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Looking for books... coder@ibm.net
- Looking for books... Jon A. Lambert
- Looking for books... clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Re: Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution Nathan Yospe
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Felix A. Croes
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Character evolution Chris Gray
- Character evolution Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Character evolution ##Make Nylander
- Character evolution Brandon J. Rickman
- Character evolution Chris Gray
- Character evolution Nathan Yospe
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Maddy
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution Marian Griffith
- Character evolution Matt Chatterley
- Character evolution Ned Lovely
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Travis Casey
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Chris Gray
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution coder@ibm.net
- Character evolution Travis Casey
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Travis Casey
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution The Eternal City
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution The Eternal City
- Character evolution Jon A. Lambert
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Brian Price
- Character evolution Travis Casey
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution Nathan Yospe
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Shawn Halpenny
- Character evolution Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Character evolution Adam Wiggins
- Alignment Jon A. Lambert
- Alignment Richard Woolcock
- Alignment Jeff Kesselman
- Alignment Jeff Kesselman
- Alignment Jon A. Lambert
- Alignment Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Alignment Ling
- Alignment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Alignment adam@treyarch.com
- Alignment Spin
- DESIGN: R-Trees (fwd) Greg Munt
- DESIGN: R-Trees (fwd) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Alignment & Introductions lapsos
- Alignment & Introductions Travis Casey
- Alignment & Introductions Matt Chatterley
- Alignment & Introductions clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Foods (was Character evolution) Marian Griffith
- Foods (was Character evolution) Matt Chatterley
- Foods (was Character evolution) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Foods (was Character evolution) Matt Chatterley
- Comments on MUDs from Shadists clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Inebriation Jon A. Lambert
- Language design Greg Munt
- Language design Jeff Kesselman
- Language design Chris Gray
- Language design clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Language design Chris Gray
- {rape] lets drop it Jeff Kesselman
- {rape] lets drop it Alex Oren
- {rape] lets drop it Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Invitations coder@ibm.net
- Invitations coder@ibm.net
- Poisons (was Foods) Koster, Kristen
- Poisons (was Foods) Travis Casey
- Poisons (was Foods) Matt Chatterley
- Poisons (was Foods) Jon A. Lambert
- META: Attributions and Eudora clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- META: Attributions and Eudora Jon A. Lambert
- Free DB list coder@ibm.net
- New topic: AI and NPCs Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- New topic: AI and NPCs Travis Casey
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- New topic: AI and NPCs Travis Casey
- New topic: AI and NPCs Adam Wiggins
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- New topic: AI and NPCs Travis Casey
- New topic: AI and NPCs Adam Wiggins
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- New topic: AI and NPCs Adam Wiggins
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- New topic: AI and NPCs clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- New topic: AI and NPCs clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New topic: AI and NPCs Matt Chatterley
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jon A. Lambert
- New topic: AI and NPCs Matt Chatterley
- New topic: AI and NPCs clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New topic: AI and NPCs Matt Chatterley
- New topic: AI and NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- New topic: AI and NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- New topic: AI and NPCs Matt Chatterley
- New topic: AI and NPCs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- New topic: AI and NPCs Ned Lovely
- New topic: AI and NPCs Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- New topic: AI and NPCs Nathan Yospe
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jon A. Lambert
- New topic: AI and NPCs Adam Wiggins
- New topic: AI and NPCs Nathan Yospe
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jon A. Lambert
- New topic: AI and NPCs Nathan Yospe
- New topic: AI and NPCs Alex Oren
- New topic: AI and NPCs Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jon A. Lambert
- New topic: AI and NPCs coder@ibm.net
- New topic: AI and NPCs clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- New topic: AI and NPCs coder@ibm.net
- New topic: AI and NPCs Jeff Kesselman
- Re: clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Rape Threads Nathan Yospe
- Rape Threads Jon A. Lambert
- Rape Threads Nathan Yospe
- Rape Threads Robin Carey
- Rape Threads Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- "Social control", was butthead features Koster, Raph
- "Social control", was butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- "Social control", was butthead features clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- "Social control", was butthead features Jeff Kesselman
- Character evolution [off topic] Alex Oren
- (fwd) NEW: multi-user VRML world clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- (fwd) NEW: multi-user VRML world Brandon Gillespie
- (fwd) NEW: multi-user VRML world Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- (fwd) NEW: multi-user VRML world coder@ibm.net
- MUD universe Felix A. Croes
- MUD universe Chris Gray
- MUD universe clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- MUD universe S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- MUD universe Nathan Yospe
- MUD Universe S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- MUD Universe Nathan Yospe
- MUD Universe S001GMU@nova.wright.edu
- MUD Universe clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- MUD universe coder@ibm.net
- MUD universe Felix A. Croes
- MUD Universe Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD universe clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- MUD universe Felix A. Croes
- MUD universe Maddy
- MUD universe clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- MUD universe Felix A. Croes
- MUD universe clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- MUD universe clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Chris Gray
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) coder@ibm.net
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Adam Wiggins
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Adam Wiggins
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) coder@ibm.net
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) coder@ibm.net
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for books...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Brian Price
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jon A. Lambert
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Chris Gray
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for coder@ibm.net
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Chris Gray
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Chris Gray
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Chris Gray
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jon A. Lambert
- MUD Design Fundamentals(Was: Looking for Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jon A. Lambert
- MUD Design Fundamentals(Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals(Was: Looking for Jon A. Lambert
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jon A. Lambert
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jon A. Lambert
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Miroslav Silovic
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jeff Kesselman
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for coder@ibm.net
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for coder@ibm.net
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MUD Design Fundamentals (Was: Looking for Jeff Kesselman
- Re: Adam Wiggins
- Re: Marian Griffith
- Users want sexy muds, not rape... (Re:) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- OT: Mortality coder@ibm.net
- Re:) Adam Wiggins
- Re:) Jeff Kesselman
- Re:) clawrenc@cup.hp.com
- Re:) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Re:) Jeff Kesselman
- Re:) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Re:) Jeff Kesselman
- Re:) Travis Casey
- Re:) Jeff Kesselman
- Re:) Travis Casey
Jeff Kesselman <jeffk@tenetwork.com> from:
> At 02:50 PM 9/1/97 PST8PDT, Travis wrote:
> TSR at the time of their collapse was still 50% of the roleplayign
m,arket.
>
> They collapsed because of bad management, not a lack of market. There is
> plenty of ducmentation on this available. Look at the avrious posts from
> WotC after their takeover onm the state of the variosu TSr lines.
I never said that TSR lacked a market -- I was trying to point up the
fact that RPGs, while they can be profitable, are not vastly so.
> >being bought out by Wizards of the Coast. Wizards of the Coast has made
> >most of its money off of Magic: The Gathering, which is *not* a
roleplaying
>
> Clearly and obviosuly thsi is apples and orenges. MTG is a product line
> with abuitl in heavy repeat sales. Its a antural to do very well if it
> does well at all. This is nto to say there is no market for a game
without
> such a repeat sales engine however. In fact there is a significant part
of
> teh amrekt that will not play MTG BECAUSE of the repeat sales engien
built in.
If this is apples and oranges, why did you mention WotC as an RPG company,
when they'd abandoned the RPG market until their recent acquisition of
TSR? All I was trying to point out is that WotC's enormous success hasn't
been from RPGs.
> >game. Indeed, to date WotC has produced *no* roleplaying materials so
far
> >which have made enough of a profit for WotC to continue producing them
--
>
> Again untrue. The CAP system (most neoteably Primal order) did very well
> initially. It was killed by TSR's strong arm pseudo-legal atctics before
> WotC had the monetary pwoer to fight back.
Hmm... could be, though I never heard about it. Where are you getting
your information from? I was one of the people working with WotC on
TPO and the Envoy system, and I never heard about any lawsuit from TSR...
although Palladium did sue them, if I remember right. As I recall,
though, all that suit wound up doing was requiring WotC to put stickers
on later copies of TPO that were shipped, saying that Palladium was a
trademark of ..., etc. The only CAP products that ever got produced,
to my knowledge, were TPO and TPO: Pawns. TPO: Bishops was being worked
on, and might have been published... I wasn't one of the people involved
with that one, so I don't know for sure.
As I remember things, the overwhelming success of MTG killed the CAP
products... they could make a lot more money by making new MTG cards
than by making more CAP products, so the CAP line was killed (more like
it was stillborn, but oh well...) That's what I meant by them "not
making enough of a profit" -- they did make a profit, but not nearly as
much as WotC was able to make with the non-roleplaying MTG.
> >though this may change now that they've acquired TSR. The primary
> >designers
> >of most of the popular paper RPGs still have to keep day jobs to make
ends
> >meet.
>
> Tell that to the multiple hundred people TSR emplotyed at its height. In
> fact, almsot ALL game designers (or modern writers) need 'day jobs to
make
> ends meet". Certain lucky companies or bets sellign authors of either
books
> or games where theyw ere lucky enough to have royalty particpation can
> escape this. Most can not.
That's my point... RPGs aren't profitable enough for most designers of
them to make a living doing them and nothing else. Only a very few
manage that.
> >> MUDs are directly descended 9though distantly at thei point) form the
> >> original single user adventure games whichw ere, belive it or not, an
> >> attenmpt to capture the feelingof D&D games on a computer.
> >
> >Well, actually, no. The first single-user computer adventure games were
> >created in the 1960's, before D&D even existed. They have spiritual
roots,
>
> First oen I knwo of was Adventrue on the main frame which was well after
> the 1977 publishign of D&D (early 80s I believe in fact.)
Checking back on things, the earliest firm date for an adventure game
I've found is Zork in 1977... and it was based on earlier text adventure
games. I couldn't find anything more specific than "early 70's" for the
first text adventure games, so it looks like I was off a bit by putting
them in the 60's. D&D, though, was first distributed in 1973, not 1977,
which is also "early 70's." It looks like I got my mistaken impression
from Steven Levy's _Hackers_... checking back, he doesn't actually give a
time frame about when Adventure was being written, but in a later section
in the chapter, he talks about things that took place in the 60's. He was
probably jumping around in time a bit while describing things, but it gave
a wrong impression. :-(
> My brother knew the guys at MIT who did DUNGEON (later republished as
> Zorkin parts on micros) as he was there at the same time, playign D&D on
> campus in afct. According to him at teh time, when he amde me aware of
the
> game, this was precisely their goal.
If I remember right, "Colossal Cave Adventure" was the first Adventure-
style game. The "early 70's" reference I found was regarding it.
I say we call it a draw... I can't tell if D&D inspired the Adventure
games or not, but the early ones definitely didn't have too much in
common with D&D other than a fantasy setting. As for profitability, it's
obvious that RPGs *can* be profitable... all I was trying to point out is
that very few people get rich off of them.
As you said, this is off-topic for the list... if you'd like to continue
talking about it, I'd suggest we do it off the list unless others show
interest in the topic.
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel@io.com>
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' rec.games.design FAQ:
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