August 2005
- SOC: Will company sanctioned cheating hurt the MMOcommunity? Michael Hartman
- Marketing Niche Online Games Christopher Allen
- SOC: Will company sanctioned cheating hurtthe MMOcommunity? Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play[was: EmergentBehaviors spawnedfrom...] cruise
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 27, Issue 3 Adam Miller
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 27, Issue 3 lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 27, Issue 3 Pandora
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 27, Issue 3 Marc Bowden
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] John Buehler
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Michael Sellers
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] John Buehler
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Michael Sellers
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Amanda Walker
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Amanda Walker
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] Michael Sellers
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Amanda Walker
- SOC/DGN: Reasons the Sexes Play Jaycen Rigger
- SOC/DGN: Reasons the Sexes Play Michael Hartman
- SOC/DGN: Reasons the Sexes Play Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] Michael Sellers
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] Ilia Malkovitch
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] ghovs
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was:EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] Michael Sellers
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] Amanda Walker
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Amanda Walker
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Amanda Walker
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Amanda Walker
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] Michael Sellers
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] Michael Sellers
- DGN: Reasons for play cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] Amanda Walker
On Oct 6, 2005, at 10:34 AM, Sean Howard wrote:
> But some opinions are worth more than others.
Hmm. I don't disagree (I'm an unrepentant elitist), but I think we
have different reasons for thinking so. Why do you think some
opinions are worth more than others? Who judges the worth of an
opinion?
> There's a difference between liking cheese just because and
> thinking The Seven Samurai is a better movie because of technical,
> emotional, compositional, and visual merit.
Actually, my opinions about cheese are more nuanced than my opinions
about movies. Then again, I adore complex, nuanced cheeses like
Cambozola that many people would describe as "smells like dirty
socks".
> We've been through this before - in this very thread. You can make
> someone buy anything with the right marketing. It is no indication
> of the innate value of the product being sold.
Value isn't innate, though. Value is an attribution made by people.
Not all value is monetary, but all value is subjective and
intersubjective. The universe as a whole simply doesn't care--value
is created by how people act.
>> We each know what we like, but no matter how well-formed our
>> opinions, they're still subjective. > > You're basically saying
>> that there is no chemistry because "we" > don't know the
>> difference between Borium and Carbon.
No, he's not, and this is important: he's saying that it's
subjective exactly because it's *not* like chemistry. Objective
means "observer independent." If you and I both drop a rock, it
will fall, regardless of our opinions on the matter. The same is
not true of games, art, etc.
> This whole "it's still subjective" crap is the same reason why
> people don't "believe in" evolution.
No, it's not. Not everything is objective--this conclusion, by the
way, is a direct consequence of the scientific revolution.
> I mean, you have to have faith in science right?
No, I don't, which is why we call some things "objective." I don't
have to believe in combustion in order for my car to work. I don't
have to believe in electricity in order to send email.
> Science is based on a VERY complex philosophy that has been
> hammered out over centuries of debate. Scientific theory is used
> to predict, not explain. It needs to be falsifiable. It has to be
> observable. It is not held to the flismy standard of whether we
> think its nifty or not.
Exactly.
> The same holds true to what constitutes a "good game".
Exactly not, which I think gets to the core of this thread. I don't
think that opinions, held by philosopher kings or not, are
falsifiable. They are by their very nature subjective and
intersubjective.
Attributes like "beauty" are not objective. Attributes like "mass"
and "velocity" are objective. It's not just that we haven't found
the right kind of ruler yet--it's that they are *different kinds of
attribute*.
> We don't have to like it for it to be good, which means that's
> something more substantial there.
But "good" is not something we can all agree on (unlike, say, the
meter and the kilogram). And were no common measure can be found,
no objective measurement can be made.
This is one reason why people fall back to "popular", by the way:
popularity *is* an objective metric. Subscriber counts, sales
numbers, etc. can be measured in observer-independent ways. "Good,"
"fun," and "beautiful" cannot.
> You are saying that all opinions are equally worthless. There's no
> good opinions or bad opinions - It's all the same to you because
> you just can't tell the difference.
Not at all--we are saying, though, that there's no observer-
independent metric for opinions--which makes them not objective.
Doesn't mean they're not interesting or useful, just not objective.
[ I'm tempted to insert footnotes to Habermas and Critical Theory
here, but I'll stick to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Critical_theory ]
Amanda Walker - DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] Matthew D. Fuller
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] Pandora
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] Matthew D. Fuller
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] Arnau Josep RosselloĢ CastelloĢ
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was:Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Michael Sellers
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Sean Kelly
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Damion Schubert
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Lachek Butalek
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Sean Kelly
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] Michael Sellers
- SOC: MUD-Dev, Developers, and DGN: Reasons for play, blah-bity-blah-bity-blah... Jaycen Rigger
- TECH DGN: Story detection Boyle, Paul
- TECH DGN: Story detection cruise
- TECH DGN: Story detection Craig Huber
- TECH DGN: Story detection Sean Howard
- TECH DGN: Story detection Greg B
- TECH DGN: Story detection Max Battcher
- TECH DGN: Story detection Michael Sellers
- TECH DGN: Story detection Mike Rozak
- TECH DGN: Story detection paulmc@syd.microforte.com.au
- TECH DGN: Story detection Mike Rozak
- TECH DGN: Story detection Boyle, Paul
- TECH DGN: Story detection Mike Rozak
- TECH DGN: Story detection John Arras
- TECH DGN: Story detection Mike Rozak
- TECH DGN: Story detection John Arras
- TECH DGN: Story detection Mike Rozak
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Mike Rozak
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Peter Harkins
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Mike Rozak
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Peter Harkins
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Mike Rozak
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Tess Snider
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Ian Hess
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Thomas Tomiczek
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Soy weiser
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Michael Hartman
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Peter Harkins
- DGN: Random questions about griefers lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Miroslav Silovic
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Tess Snider
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Mike Rozak
- DGN: Random questions about griefers David Johansson
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Mike Rozak
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Nesta Stubbs
- DGN: Random questions about griefers Peter Harkins
- DGN: Random questions about griefers lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Random questions about griefers John Buehler
- Formulae Generation Ximon
- Formulae Generation Pandora
- Formulae Generation cruise
- Formulae Generation Ximon
- Formulae Generation Eli Stevens (WG.c)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Damion Schubert
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 27, Issue 8 Adam Miller
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 27, Issue 8 Sean Howard
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 27, Issue 8 Amanda Walker
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: EmergentBehaviorsspawnedfrom...] Michael Sellers
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 27, Issue 9 Dread Quixadhal
- Democratizing MMOs - new business model chris klaus
- Democratizing MMOs - new business model Mike Rozak