August 2004
- What is an MMOG? ceo
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Mike Rozak
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Otis Viles
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Richard A. Bartle
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Scott Tengelin
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Dana V. Baldwin
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series David Kennerly
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Ghilardi Filippo
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MEDIA: .hack//SIGN Japanise animated series zgj22@drexel.edu
- Books on Virtual Worlds Matt Cruikshank
- DGN: Requesting feedback on a "concept document" (somewhat related to Better Combat) Craig Huber
- The Casual-Player Killer: Time? (was MMO Communities) Will Jennings
- The Casual-Player Killer: Time? (was MMO Communities) Amanda Walker
- The Casual-Player Killer: Time? (was MMO Communities) Michael Sellers
- [BIZ] CoH subscribers numbers Ghilardi Filippo
- [DGN] Socialization against the fun [was: MMO Communities] HRose
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Fwd: Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) kennerly@finegamedesign.com
- Time debt Stephen McDonald
- Fwd: Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) kennerly@finegamedesign.com
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) David Kennerly
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) David Kennerly
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) David Kennerly
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paul Schwanz
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) cruise
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) ceo
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) ceo
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) cruise
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) ceo
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) cruise
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paul Schwanz
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) KaVir@t-online.de (Richard Woolcock)
- Cognitively Interesting Combat Derek Larson
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (keyword: archetypes) Eric Random
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (keyword: archetypes) Paolo Piselli
- ADMIN: Effective progress methods for MUD-Dev (was Better Combat (long)) J C Lawrence
- FW: Deriving Self Esteem from one's MMORPGavatar[was:Long-Term Rewards] vladimir cole
- Asynchronous Event Execution & Localizing Brian Lindahl
- database design Lazarus
- database design Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- database design Lazarus
- database design
- [DGN] database design Steven King
- database design Erik Bethke
- database design Sean Kelly
- database design Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death Artur Biesiadowski
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death Vladimir Cole
- PVP and perma-death Vladimir Cole
- PVP and perma-death Artur Biesiadowski
- PVP and perma-death Steven King
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death Steven King
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death Douglas Goodall
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death [NEW THEME] After Deployment Tiago Carita
- PVP and perma-death Paul Schwanz
- PVP and perma-death J C Lawrence
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death Koster, Raph
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death ceo
- PVP and perma-death Michael Sellers
- PVP and perma-death Matt Mihaly
- PVP and perma-death Douglas Goodall
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Derek Licciardi
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death J C Lawrence
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PVP and perma-death HRose
- PVP and perma-death Michael Sellers
- PVP and perma-death Byron Ellacott
- PVP and perma-death J C Lawrence
- PVP and perma-death Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] William Leader
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Stephen McDonald
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] David Kennerly
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] J C Lawrence
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] David Kennerly
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Koster, Raph
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] J C Lawrence
- ADMIN: Effective progress methods for MUD-Dev Jim Purbrick
- The Great Scam J C Lawrence
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG J C Lawrence
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG Koster, Raph
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG Douglas Goodall
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG J C Lawrence
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG David Kennerly
- [MEDIA] Finding an Interesting Middle Path in the RPG Megan Fox
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Matthew Rick
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Brian Hook
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations ceo
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Sean Middleditch
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Paul Schwanz
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Jason Lai
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations J C Lawrence
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations HRose
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations J C Lawrence
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Megan Fox
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations J C Lawrence
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations HRose
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Brian Miller
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Michael Sellers
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Michael Hartman
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Brian Miller
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Chris Duesing
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations Douglas Goodall
- SOC DGN - Spawn locations J C Lawrence
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] William Leader
- On balance and reality Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- On balance and reality William Leader
- On balance and reality Koster, Raph
- On balance and reality Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- On balance and reality HRose
- On balance and reality Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- On balance and reality Vladimir Cole
- On balance and reality William Leader
- On balance and reality William Leader
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Koster, Raph
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Gedanken
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Koster, Raph
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] HRose
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Koster, Raph
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Matthew Dobervich
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Mike Rozak
- text based MUD Codebases, which one to pick? mirjam.eladhari@interactiveinstitute.se
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Douglas Goodall
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Steven King
- Casual Crowd vs.Time Rich Crowd [was: Time Debt] Michael Hartman
- Complexity and Accessibility (was: Better Combat (long)) Will Jennings
Raph Koster wrote:
[some thoughts on how complexity in art grows, leading to alienation
and a shrinking market]
Thanks for taking the conversation in such an interesting direction!
Now I can disagree.
> We can observe a gradual move towards increased formalism and
> complexity in the development of almost any art form [...]. It
> typically is accompanied by a parallel loss of audience, as the
> general public tends not to want to be challenged in that way.
I'm skeptical of the teleology here. Examples: Oral storytelling
has, in general, stricter form than the novel. As rap music grew
its audience and entered the mainstream, it became more complex
sonically, but less complex verbally. I'm not so sure the
middle-of-the-bell-curve of the degree of formalism of Western art
music has done more than oscillate over the last six hundred years,
and its audience has fluctuated independent of those oscillations.
Sometimes, perhaps, an art form needs to be around a little while
before it gets very complex. There needs to be a critical mass of
folks making it before good language gets developed to talk about
it, and then the language helps in coming up with formal tricks.
But after the first person of a sufficiently scholarly bent starts
playing formal tricks, I don't see a general trend toward increasing
formality.[1]
It doesn't help that "formality" and "complexity" are, in the sense
we're using them, almost entirely subjective. We're also switching
their meanings, using the same words to talk about richness of
vocabulary, structural complexity, the use of analysis of old work
to generate new work, and accessibility, all of which are pretty
orthogonal.
[major tangent]
> The cultural forces behind this are fascinating, because at the
> same time that the art recedes away from comprehensibility by the
> average person by demanding an overly high level of insider
> knowledge of the medium, we also see a rise in "priesthoods" of
> people who use their knowledge as a social signaling mechanism.
Yeah, that is cool.
What's even neater is that when the art becomes less comprehensible,
not because of demanding lots of insider knowledge, but because of
being more radical or abstract, the "priesthoods" arise regardless
and create the insider knowledge from thin air. And then this
invented language can become a bigger barrier to outsiders than the
comprehensibility of the work itself -- it's a lot harder for me to
parse the text of an average modern art book than it is for me to be
moved by the works themselves. (Sometimes I wonder how many MUD
players have been lost, not because the game is too complicated for
them, but because they're embarrassed to be unable to tell a rez
from a mez, or ltb from lfg.)
[/major tangent]
> Given that games (in the formal sense) are formal mathematical
> constructs, I think there's an interesting question to be had
> there. [...] Is the overcomplication of games what will doom them
> to an increasingly smaller market?
(Sorry if that's not the fairest edit -- I had trouble working out
what "an interesting question to be had there" pointed to.)
MUDs and the vast majority of card, board, and computer games are
not games in a formal, mathematical sense (just like groups of
people aren't groups in the formal, mathematical sense).[2] To the
degree that they are amenable to mathematical analysis, David
Kennerly pointed out in a related thread that NP-hard (mathematical
complexity) doesn't equal hard-for-people-to-play
(overcomplication): it's easier to win at Minesweeper (which is
NP-complete) than to beat the toughest FPS bot (which probably isn't
solving too many NP-hard problems).
> Given that games are fundamentally formal constructs and not,
> generally, communicative media (unlike other art forms, which are
> generally communications *mediated* by formal constructs)...
I may not understand what you mean by communicative in this context.
Do you mean the art form communicates some fact or opinion? Are you
saying that you view art as a message or moral, wrapped up in an
art-language? I recognize that's not a terribly far-out idea, but I
don't see why looking at games through that lens is any stranger
than viewing music, sculpture, portraiture, architecture, flower
arranging, dance, or the culinary arts through that lens.
Maybe you mean instead that art-forms-in-general are, at core, a
form of social grooming or ritual -- that's another interpretation
of communicating, and another reasonable idea about art. But
wouldn't games be exemplary. . . um. . . examples of that?
In either case, I don't see why games are less communicative or more
fundamentally formal than the rest of Art.
> ...that may mean that videogaming may be headed down the path trod
> by chess and go--towards elites and no mass acceptance.
I couldn't name a third game with as much mass acceptance as Chess
and Go (unless, maybe, football?). Even at our most populist (any
populists here? hello?), I think we'd all be quite happy to work on
a game as popular and long-lived.
More germane: You're likely right that we'll see more shibboleths in
games, but I'm betting it'll be in reasonable proportion to the
degree the vocabulary permeates the culture as a whole. Your
concern seems to be that hardcore Grand Theft Auto and Everquest
players will dominate the development of future games and create
things only those similarly initiated can understand -- why wouldn't
the ranks of future developers be drawn also from the masses of
Bejeweled players?
-Will Jennings
[1] I do see a trend toward complexity when technology or money is
a limiting factor. That's my excuse for the most germane example:
the increasing complexity of console and PC games, and (to a
lesser extent) MUDs.
[2] There are two breeds of formal, mathematical definitions of
game that I'm familiar with: the von Neumann/Morgenstern version,
involving some situation where a bunch of actors are trying to
maximize what they get out of a payoff matrix, and the
combinatorial game theory of Conway/Guy, where deterministic,
finite, two-player, turn-based, discrete games of complete
information are analysed (and maybe some very modest
generalizations).
Certainly these have applications to the study of
games-in-the-MUD-Dev- sense, but to say that Nuclear War is
fundamentally a Prisoner's Dilemma, or that Go is fundamentally
Nim, isn't any more accurate than saying that the Sistine Chapel
ceiling is fundamentally the Golden Ratio, or that Martha Graham's
choreography reduces to the physics of tensile strength. - SOC DGN: AC like alligiance system Matthew Rick
- SOC DGN: AC like alligiance system Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- SOC DGN: AC like alligiance system cruise
- SOC DGN: AC like alligiance system Artur Biesiadowski
- SOC DGN: AC like alligiance system HRose
- "a nicer species" (from today's Chronicle) (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Distributed State Systems Davion Kalhen
- Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Distributed State Systems Alex Arnon
- Distributed State Systems Davion Kalhen
- Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Distributed State Systems Alex Arnon
- Distributed State Systems Alex Arnon
- Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Distributed State Systems Bruce Mitchener
- Distributed State Systems Michael Hartman
- Distributed State Systems Michael Tindal
- Distributed State Systems Thomas Tomiczek
- Distributed State Systems Brian Lindahl
- Complexity and Accessibility Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Paolo Piselli
- wherefor in-game artists? Richard A. Bartle
- wherefor in-game artists? Sean Howard
- wherefor in-game artists? David Kennerly
- wherefor in-game artists? ceo
- wherefor in-game artists? David Kennerly
- wherefor in-game artists? Richard A. Bartle
- wherefor in-game artists? Paolo Piselli
- wherefor in-game artists? Richard A. Bartle
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Richard A. Bartle
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Robert Zubek
- wherefor in-game artists? Matt Mihaly
- wherefor in-game artists? Christopher Allen
- wherefor in-game artists? Matt Mihaly
- wherefor in-game artists? Christopher Allen
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Douglas Goodall
- wherefor in-game artists? Christopher Allen
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Christopher Allen
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Koster, Raph
- wherefor in-game artists? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- wherefor in-game artists? Koster, Raph
- wherefor in-game artists? Douglas Goodall