February 2007

• [Design] Personal virtual worlds Lachek Butalek
• • [Design] Personal virtual worlds Mike Rozak
• Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Nick Koranda
• • Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Raph Koster
• [ALL PLEASE READ - FROM MODERATOR] Nick Koranda
• [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons and animals Mike Rozak
• • [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons and animals cruise
  • • [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons andanimals Mike Rozak
    • • [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons andanimals cruise
      • • [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons andanimals Johnicholas Hines
        • • [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons andanimals Caliban Darklock
• stock market mechanisms in muds Johnicholas Hines
• • stock market mechanisms in muds John Buehler
  • stock market mechanisms in muds Acius
  • • stock market mechanisms in muds Daniel James
  • stock market mechanisms in muds Matt Chatterley
  • • stock market mechanisms in muds Johnicholas Hines
  • stock market mechanisms in muds Chapman, Greg
• Imaginary Realities mirror Richard Tew
• • Imaginary Realities mirror Michael Hartman
• Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Peter Harkins
• [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Phillip Lenhardt
• • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Morris Cox
  • • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? John Bertoglio
    • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Morris Cox
  • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Jeremy Noetzelman
  • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Alex Arnon
  • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Squid
• Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Ghilardi Filippo
• • Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Darryl Woodford
• stock market mechanisms in muds Raph Koster
• [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? John Bertoglio
• [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personal virtual worlds] Mike Rozak
• • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] Michael Sellers
  • • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personal virtual worlds] Caliban Darklock
    • • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] John Buehler
      • • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [wasPersonalvirtual worlds] Michael Sellers
      • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] Michael Sellers
      • • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] Jeffrey Kesselman
        • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] Caliban Darklock
    • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [wasPersonalvirtual worlds] Dave Scheffer
    • • [Design]Characters moving between worlds[wasPersonalvirtual worlds] Michael Sellers
  • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personal virtual worlds] Jeffrey Kesselman
• Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Ghilardi Filippo
• [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Mike Rozak
• • [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial userexperience Michael Sellers
  • [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Tess Snider
  • • [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Vincent Archer
• stock market mechanisms in muds Matt Chatterley
• • stock market mechanisms in muds Peter Keeler
  • • stock market mechanisms in muds Johnicholas Hines
  • [MUD-Dev2] Michael Sellers
• [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Jeffrey Kesselman
• Mailing List Alternatives (was Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives) Morgan Ramsay
• • Mailing List Alternatives (was Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives) David Johansson
• [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
• • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Lachek Butalek
  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Jeffrey Kesselman
    • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
        • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] cruise
          • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Jeffrey Kesselman
            • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Jeffrey Kesselman
              • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] cruise
              • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Sean Howard
                • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Jeffrey Kesselman
                • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] cruise
            • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Damion Schubert
            • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Lachek Butalek
              • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] cruise
        • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Jeffrey Kesselman
        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
          • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Adam Martin
            • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
              • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
              • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants cruise
              • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Damion Schubert
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Dana V. Baldwin
                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Amanda Walker
                    • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Dave Scheffer
                  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Phillip Lenhardt
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Caliban Darklock
      • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Vincent Archer
      • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Michael Sellers
      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Caliban Darklock
        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Dana V. Baldwin
          • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Caliban Darklock
            • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Michael Hartman
            • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Dana V. Baldwin
        • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
          • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
            • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
              • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Vincent Archer
                      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Raph Koster
                      • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                          • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                            • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                                Richard A. Bartle writes:
                                
                                > On 15 March 2007, John Buehler wrote:
                                > >I simply don't believe that the vast majority of graphical combat game
                                > >players have any interest in emote systems.
                                > By "combat game" do you mean virtual worlds such as EQ, WoW, DAOC
                                > and the like?
                                
                                Yep.
                                
                                > If so, does this mean you think Blizzard really wasted their time
                                > with that /dance command? The one that people always seem to want to know
                                > how it works for any new player-controlled model (trees, snowmen, arakkoa)
                                > and are disappointed when there isn't one?
                                
                                Is that a sign of an interest in emotes for reasons of socialization or for
                                reasons of seeing something fun for themselves?
                                
                                The social elements that I noticed catching on in World of Warcraft were
                                things that fit players who enjoyed collecting items and that had simple
                                "look at me" value. Standing in a prominent place and using /dance.
                                Collecting social pets such as turtles and snakes.
                                
                                These are not the sort of players who are looking to get to know other
                                people or are interested in presenting a sophisticated facade of a role -
                                which is what subtleties such as emoting are most closely aligned with.
                                
                                > >Any more than they have an interest in chatting.
                                > The issue is not whether they have an interest in chatting; the
                                > issue is whether they have an interest in being unable to chat. Adding
                                > chats and emotes may not affect their play, but they'll notice if it's
                                > no longer available.
                                
                                The ability to communicate, yes. The question in my mind is one of what the
                                players are attempting to communicate. My experience has been that players
                                communicate data about the game far more than spending any time at all with
                                communicating anything about themselves as players or as characters.
                                
                                > >These are players who are drawn to graphical depictions of
                                > realtime combat
                                > >combined with advancement. "Talking is for girls"
                                > Well, we do have actual girls playing these games.
                                
                                I didn't mean to be taken quite so literally.
                                
                                > >For emotes and chat to be pertinent in a game, the game itself must
                                > >naturally incorporate emotes and chat.
                                > You mean from a gameplay perspective, so if you smile an an NPC
                                > then you may get a better deal from them than if you scowl (unless you
                                > scowl REALLY menacingly)? I've no objection to this, indeed it could be
                                > quite fun.
                                
                                I think it could be quite fun as well, but the devil is in the details. If
                                the entirety of the game is about getting to level N as fast as possible,
                                then smiling at vendors is going to be a macro on the keyboard and nothing
                                more. I was thinking of the ethic of the game when I wrote my last reply.
                                A game like Second Life is far more social. Emoting and chatting there can
                                be very sophisticated, and it makes sense there. The players are of a mind
                                to use it.
                                
                                > >Combat games (as they exist today) are not strong on
                                > >socialization. Ergo, emoting and chatting are irrelevant, regardless of
                                > how
                                > >well the systems are done.
                                > For emotes and chat not to be present in a virtual world,
                                > you need to
                                > explain why they're a bad thing, not why they're irrelevant.
                                
                                They will remain in "virtual worlds" because multiple players will need to
                                coordinate, taunt, compete, negotiate, whatever. The need for subtlety in a
                                chat system (including emotes) is what I'm focusing on. Unless the virtual
                                world's entertainment is structured appropriately, a subtle chat system is a
                                pointless expenditure of development effort.
                                
                                > >Chatting and emoting in Second Life? Definitely. In World of Warcraft?
                                > >Does it get me my tier 3 gear?
                                > It does if you do it to the right person.
                                
                                "The right person" is the key. The "right people" aren't playing World of
                                Warcraft. They're all over in Second Life, chatting and emoting.
                                
                                JB
                              • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Michael Hartman
                                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                                • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                                • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Damion Schubert
                                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Damion Schubert
                  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Matt Chatterley
                  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Damion Schubert
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                    • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Amanda Walker
                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                  • [TECH DESIGN] Next Generation Infrastructure Phillip Lenhardt
                  • • [TECH DESIGN] Next Generation Infrastructure Lachek Butalek
                    • [TECH DESIGN] Next Generation Infrastructure Jeffrey Kesselman
                  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Adam Martin
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Amanda Walker
                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Adam Martin
                      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Amanda Walker
                        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Adam Martin
                      • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Daniel James
                    • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
                        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                    • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Phillip Lenhardt
                      • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
        • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
• Re:[Humor] MMORPG Cliches (was " A rant against MMORPG installs and initialuserexperience") Mike Rozak
• [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
• [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Adam Martin
• • [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Michael Sellers
• [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Raph Koster
• • [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Adam Martin
  • [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Jon Leonard
  • • [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Jeffrey Kesselman
    • [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Raph Koster
• [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Vincent Archer
• • [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Matt Chatterley
• [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system Michael Sellers
• • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system cruise
  • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Michael Sellers
    • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Sean Howard
      • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Caliban Darklock
    • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem John Buehler
    • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Lachek Butalek
    • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Raph Koster
    • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem cruise
      • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard'sdiplomacysystem Raph Koster
• [OFF-TOPIC] A rant for Vanguard DANIEL Harman
• • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant for Vanguard Sean Howard
  • • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry (Was: A rant for Vanguard) Nick Koranda
    • • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Sean Howard
      • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Morgan Ramsay
      • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Caliban Darklock
      • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Jeffrey Kesselman
      • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Adam Martin
      • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Christopher Allen
      • • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Michael Sellers
• [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Raph Koster