February 2007

• [Design] Personal virtual worlds Lachek Butalek
• • [Design] Personal virtual worlds Mike Rozak
• Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Nick Koranda
• • Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Raph Koster
• [ALL PLEASE READ - FROM MODERATOR] Nick Koranda
• [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons and animals Mike Rozak
• • [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons and animals cruise
  • • [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons andanimals Mike Rozak
    • • [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons andanimals cruise
      • • [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons andanimals Johnicholas Hines
        • • [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons andanimals Caliban Darklock
• stock market mechanisms in muds Johnicholas Hines
• • stock market mechanisms in muds John Buehler
  • stock market mechanisms in muds Acius
  • • stock market mechanisms in muds Daniel James
  • stock market mechanisms in muds Matt Chatterley
  • • stock market mechanisms in muds Johnicholas Hines
  • stock market mechanisms in muds Chapman, Greg
• Imaginary Realities mirror Richard Tew
• • Imaginary Realities mirror Michael Hartman
• Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Peter Harkins
• [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Phillip Lenhardt
• • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Morris Cox
  • • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? John Bertoglio
    • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Morris Cox
  • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Jeremy Noetzelman
  • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Alex Arnon
  • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Squid
• Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Ghilardi Filippo
• • Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Darryl Woodford
• stock market mechanisms in muds Raph Koster
• [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? John Bertoglio
• [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personal virtual worlds] Mike Rozak
• • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] Michael Sellers
  • • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personal virtual worlds] Caliban Darklock
    • • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] John Buehler
      • • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [wasPersonalvirtual worlds] Michael Sellers
      • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] Michael Sellers
      • • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] Jeffrey Kesselman
        • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] Caliban Darklock
    • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [wasPersonalvirtual worlds] Dave Scheffer
    • • [Design]Characters moving between worlds[wasPersonalvirtual worlds] Michael Sellers
  • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personal virtual worlds] Jeffrey Kesselman
• Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Ghilardi Filippo
• [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Mike Rozak
• • [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial userexperience Michael Sellers
  • [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Tess Snider
  • • [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Vincent Archer
• stock market mechanisms in muds Matt Chatterley
• • stock market mechanisms in muds Peter Keeler
  • • stock market mechanisms in muds Johnicholas Hines
  • [MUD-Dev2] Michael Sellers
• [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Jeffrey Kesselman
• Mailing List Alternatives (was Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives) Morgan Ramsay
• • Mailing List Alternatives (was Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives) David Johansson
• [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
• • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Lachek Butalek
  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Jeffrey Kesselman
    • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
        • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] cruise
          • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Jeffrey Kesselman
            • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Jeffrey Kesselman
              • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] cruise
              • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Sean Howard
                • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Jeffrey Kesselman
                • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] cruise
            • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Damion Schubert
            • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Lachek Butalek
              • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] cruise
        • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Jeffrey Kesselman
        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
          • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Adam Martin
            • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
              • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
                    "Mike Rozak" <Mike@mxac.com.au> wrote:
                    > My problem with Vanguard is that it's not Harry Potter. It's a like CLONE
                    > of Harry Potter that is poorly written, starts to offer something new (in
                    > diplomacy), but doesn't seem to integrate/develop the concept well.
                    
                    Your problem is that Vanguard is that it is, in your opinion, a generic
                    clone. That's an acceptable stance and one I'd be up for devil's
                    advocating either side. But your complaints weren't about Vanguard being
                    generic. It was about the cliches and patterns it adopted being overdone.
                    Since some people actively like these patterns and seek them out, they are
                    not alone marks against the game.
                    
                    A majority of your complaints about Vanguard are shallow, if they are even
                    about Vangaurd in the first place, and I'd say that a good portion of them
                    are so subjective that others may consider your cons to be pros. So, at
                    the end of the day, all you've done is share an opinion that isn't going
                    to help anybody understand Vanguard or decide whether or not to try it
                    out. Diatribes like that are just complaining through your own frustration
                    rather than sharing or studying.
                    
                    Ultimately, I do not like Vanguard. With the recently announce price
                    increase of Station Access, I won't be doing it and Vanguard is probably
                    not strong enough to entice me back without a new interesting feature or
                    expansion pack (curiosity has always been my greatest weakness). So don't
                    think that my defending Vanguard out of loyalty or fanboyness is the
                    reason I'm attacking your "review". I just expect the people on this list
                    to be more progressive and intelligent in their critiques.
                    
                    > Vanguard's "first chapter" is about killing foozles. The game may have
                    > other elements, like diplomacy, flying, sailing, etc., but they're not
                    > revealed right away, even in a sneak peak. (My issue #3 about vanguard)
                    
                    I have no idea how long you've played the game, but several of those
                    features are revealed in great detail within the first few hours of
                    playing. Diplomacy shows up real fast (and potentially faster if you look
                    for it) and while you may not actually own a boat, boat rides between
                    continents is usually about a 5 minute safe walk from your starting area.
                    Again, your complaints seem more like you want to complain than you
                    actively seeking out what Vanguard is really like.
                    
                    > Your POV seems to be, "I know vanguard is intended to be a clone of EQ1,
                    > so I'll review it with those assumptions/limitations in mind." My point
                    > is that being a clone and not being significantly better that what
                    > you're trying to clone is a fundamental flaw. (Issues 1 and 2 about
                    > Vanguard.)
                    
                    Vanguard is intended to be in the same genre as EQ1, not a clone of it.
                    More like a philosophical sequel. With MMORPGs being more and more
                    streamlined and, dare I say it, minimal these days, having a game in that
                    particular genre is not exactly common anymore. Vanguard seems like a
                    completely different beast to something like EQ2 or WoW, and up until
                    Vanguard, those were the EQ1 successors in the curr/prev MMORPG
                    generation. So, I know WHY Vanguard is the way it is. You see it as a step
                    backwards, and it is, but back there is where some very interesting and
                    cool things were left and forgotten.
                    
                    You seem to be judging it based on Oblivion or World of Warcraft - games
                    with a very different direction and philosophy than Vanguard has. I don't
                    think we should judge how well Vanguard stands up to Oblivion's philosophy
                    any more than I think we should judge how well Oblivion stands up to
                    Vanguards (not very well, it would seem). For games designed around a
                    specific philosophical goal, you cannot ignore intent.
                    
                    As for whether or not it is superior to EQ1 or not is actually an
                    interesting question - but I don't think the discussion will involve
                    whether elves are in trees or whether or not shopkeepers still stand
                    around.
                    
                    > And, as you quipped in another post, my issues are NOT akin to
                    > complaining that a book has pages that produce paper cuts. If I had such
                    > issues, I'd have written that I didn't like using mice or that my video
                    > screen was too small.
                    
                    No, I guess it's more like complaining that Forgotten Realms: Legacy of
                    the Dragon King has dragons in it.
                    
                    > Issue #4 that I had was about NPC problems, which using the Harry Potter
                    > analogy, is like saying the characters in the Harry Potter clone aren't
                    > well written, and don't "leap out of the page".
                    
                    Not at all. The NPCs in the game are not intended to be anything more than
                    shopkeepers and quest givers. They aren't the main characters at all,
                    though perhaps the quests themselves are - but you admitted that you
                    didn't even bother reading the quest descriptions. I'd say it's more like
                    writing a book report on Harry Potter's characters based on an outline
                    rather than actually reading the book.
                    
                    > If I had mentioned issue #6, it would be about some of the forced
                    > grouping issues and meeting other players.
                    
                    You will never hear me say a positive word about forced grouping, ever.
                    I'll devil's advocate issues I don't agree with, but in this case, it is a
                    fundamental issue that I wish to abolish from the tiny little minds of
                    every wannabe mmorpg designer in existence, and I would gladly kick
                    anybody suggesting forced grouping in the balls until they cried.
                    
                    Forced grouping is a blight (and that includes equally retarded forced
                    grouping like oldschool SWG where you had to find doctors/entertainers to
                    cure you, or crafters to outfit you). It's nothing but ugly bigotry
                    against a subsect of gamers.
                    
                    --
                    Sean Howard
              • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants cruise
              • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Damion Schubert
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Dana V. Baldwin
                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Amanda Walker
                    • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Dave Scheffer
                  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Phillip Lenhardt
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Caliban Darklock
      • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Vincent Archer
      • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Michael Sellers
      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Caliban Darklock
        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Dana V. Baldwin
          • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Caliban Darklock
            • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Michael Hartman
            • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Dana V. Baldwin
        • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
          • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
            • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
              • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Vincent Archer
                      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Raph Koster
                      • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                          • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                            • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                              • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Michael Hartman
                                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                                • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                                • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Damion Schubert
                                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Damion Schubert
                  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Matt Chatterley
                  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Damion Schubert
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                    • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Amanda Walker
                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                  • [TECH DESIGN] Next Generation Infrastructure Phillip Lenhardt
                  • • [TECH DESIGN] Next Generation Infrastructure Lachek Butalek
                    • [TECH DESIGN] Next Generation Infrastructure Jeffrey Kesselman
                  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Adam Martin
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Amanda Walker
                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Adam Martin
                      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Amanda Walker
                        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Adam Martin
                      • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Daniel James
                    • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
                        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                    • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Phillip Lenhardt
                      • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
        • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
• Re:[Humor] MMORPG Cliches (was " A rant against MMORPG installs and initialuserexperience") Mike Rozak
• [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
• [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Adam Martin
• • [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Michael Sellers
• [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Raph Koster
• • [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Adam Martin
  • [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Jon Leonard
  • • [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Jeffrey Kesselman
    • [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Raph Koster
• [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Vincent Archer
• • [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Matt Chatterley
• [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system Michael Sellers
• • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system cruise
  • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Michael Sellers
    • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Sean Howard
      • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Caliban Darklock
    • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem John Buehler
    • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Lachek Butalek
    • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Raph Koster
    • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem cruise
      • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard'sdiplomacysystem Raph Koster
• [OFF-TOPIC] A rant for Vanguard DANIEL Harman
• • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant for Vanguard Sean Howard
  • • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry (Was: A rant for Vanguard) Nick Koranda
    • • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Sean Howard
      • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Morgan Ramsay
      • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Caliban Darklock
      • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Jeffrey Kesselman
      • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Adam Martin
      • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Christopher Allen
      • • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Michael Sellers
• [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Raph Koster