February 2007

• [Design] Personal virtual worlds Lachek Butalek
• • [Design] Personal virtual worlds Mike Rozak
• Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Nick Koranda
• • Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Raph Koster
• [ALL PLEASE READ - FROM MODERATOR] Nick Koranda
• [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons and animals Mike Rozak
• • [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons and animals cruise
  • • [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons andanimals Mike Rozak
    • • [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons andanimals cruise
      • • [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons andanimals Johnicholas Hines
        • • [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons andanimals Caliban Darklock
• stock market mechanisms in muds Johnicholas Hines
• • stock market mechanisms in muds John Buehler
  • stock market mechanisms in muds Acius
  • • stock market mechanisms in muds Daniel James
  • stock market mechanisms in muds Matt Chatterley
  • • stock market mechanisms in muds Johnicholas Hines
  • stock market mechanisms in muds Chapman, Greg
• Imaginary Realities mirror Richard Tew
• • Imaginary Realities mirror Michael Hartman
• Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Peter Harkins
• [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Phillip Lenhardt
• • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Morris Cox
  • • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? John Bertoglio
    • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Morris Cox
  • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Jeremy Noetzelman
  • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Alex Arnon
  • [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Squid
• Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Ghilardi Filippo
• • Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Darryl Woodford
• stock market mechanisms in muds Raph Koster
• [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? John Bertoglio
• [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personal virtual worlds] Mike Rozak
• • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] Michael Sellers
  • • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personal virtual worlds] Caliban Darklock
    • • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] John Buehler
      • • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [wasPersonalvirtual worlds] Michael Sellers
      • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] Michael Sellers
      • • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] Jeffrey Kesselman
        • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] Caliban Darklock
    • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [wasPersonalvirtual worlds] Dave Scheffer
    • • [Design]Characters moving between worlds[wasPersonalvirtual worlds] Michael Sellers
  • [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personal virtual worlds] Jeffrey Kesselman
• Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Ghilardi Filippo
• [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Mike Rozak
• • [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial userexperience Michael Sellers
  • [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Tess Snider
  • • [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Vincent Archer
• stock market mechanisms in muds Matt Chatterley
• • stock market mechanisms in muds Peter Keeler
  • • stock market mechanisms in muds Johnicholas Hines
  • [MUD-Dev2] Michael Sellers
• [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Jeffrey Kesselman
• Mailing List Alternatives (was Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives) Morgan Ramsay
• • Mailing List Alternatives (was Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives) David Johansson
• [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
• • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Lachek Butalek
  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Jeffrey Kesselman
    • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
        • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] cruise
          • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Jeffrey Kesselman
            • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Jeffrey Kesselman
              • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] cruise
              • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Sean Howard
                • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Jeffrey Kesselman
                • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] cruise
            • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Damion Schubert
            • • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Lachek Butalek
              • genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] cruise
        • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Jeffrey Kesselman
        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
          • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Adam Martin
            • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
              • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
              • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants cruise
              • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Damion Schubert
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Dana V. Baldwin
                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Amanda Walker
                    • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Dave Scheffer
                  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Phillip Lenhardt
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Caliban Darklock
      • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Vincent Archer
      • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Michael Sellers
      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Caliban Darklock
        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Dana V. Baldwin
          • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Caliban Darklock
            • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Michael Hartman
            • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Dana V. Baldwin
        • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
          • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
            • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                Richard A. Bartle writes:
                
                > On 27 February 2007, John Buehler wrote:
                
                [some snipped stuff]
                
                > Well one of the main things that I notice is a lack of attention to
                > detail. So many things don't behave as you'd expect that the level of
                > persuasiveness is much lower than it should be. Furthermore, there are
                > interesting gameplay consequences that are missed because of this
                > shallowness.
                
                [much-appreciated examples snipped]
                
                > Even given that visual interactivity is expensive to show, it
                > could still be more consistent. I can walk through other players but I
                > can't walk through a mop standing upright in a bucket propped up against
                > nothing? I can walk through a mushroom half my height but not one that
                > only comes up to my knees? What gives?
                
                [and again]
                
                > Sooner or later, graphical virtual worlds will have to become
                > more detailed: breadth is good, but longer-term players appreciate
                > depth. When we get these details, we can either look at how the old
                > textual worlds did it (and adapt them to account for advances made
                > since then) or we can design everything from scratch and make the
                > same mistakes as were made before (with selective depth being the
                > most likely firt-timer's error - making the world deeper in some
                > places but not in other, equivalent places).
                
                > >Right, the "nuanced complexity". What are some key elements of that?
                > The key element is that you simulate the world at one conceptual
                > level below that at which you present it.
                
                [examples again snipped]
                
                I completely agree with you. The two major points that I've heard are:
                
                1. Professionalism
                
                This is kindergarden stuff. Everyone should be learning of the need to work
                hard, work smart, produce quality and take pride in what was produced. It
                carries from any field of endeavor, from coaching to basketweaving. To
                continue would be to debate points of sociology.
                
                2. Fidelty of the fiction
                
                I was going to rant about this recently, but decided against it. Like most
                people who can carry a conversation on a number of topics, I find that depth
                becomes mandatory after the first impressions are taken in. The absence of
                that depth is a glaring void, like sitting down to a meal only to find that
                the food is plastic.
                
                I assume that the reason behind the lack of depth is that it's more
                difficult to do, and that products can be sold and be financially very
                successful without it.
                
                Text MUDs are really the province of true zealots. They're people who are
                not only patient (and literate) enough to read the text, but are sated by
                that experience. It's a small, but enthusiastic demographic. They won't
                tolerate shallow experiences because there are plenty of other text MUDs
                that have depth. That precedent was set by the first crop of MUD developers
                who were working on their own dime, trying to do a good job so that others
                would enjoy the experience of their software. They did take pride in their
                work.
                
                Graphical games lack the precedent of quality and depth because the first
                ones stood on the novelty of their graphics. And that trend is continuing
                to this day. They exist by their eye candy. The voices of those demanding
                depth of experience are drowned out by those who want loot, levels and
                power. There are millions in the latter camp. Precious few in the former.
                
                Next, look at the want ads for game developers. You don't see them calling
                out to people talented in depth of experience, simulation and such. They
                want people who are passionate about gaming. What gaming? The current
                games, of course. The industry reinforces itself by hiring people who like
                the games that are out there now.
                
                To break out of this pattern, it's going to take things like inexpensive
                graphics engines that will let every Tom, Dick and Harry Developer take a
                shot at the graphical genre the same way that printf permitted the parents
                of those developers to take a shot at the textual genre. That's when the
                zealots for depth will be able to step up to the plate and build something
                that will put World of Warcraft to shame.
                
                The attempts are being made already, but none has caught on just yet. It is
                my hope that there's a slow-motion explosion already taking place,
                surrounding a game that is predicated on having some depth of experience,
                etc. In a few years, we may all hear about it and be delighted that what
                will probably become known as "a new genre" has come into being.
                
                > >Is there an existing writeup on the skipped lessons of text MUDs that
                > anyone
                > >can point me to?
                > Not that I know of, but that doesn't mean we can't put something
                > together at the end of this thread.
                
                Anything, to get us away from the graphics crutch.
                
                JB
              • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Vincent Archer
                      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Raph Koster
                      • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                          • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                            • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                              • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Michael Hartman
                                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                                • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                                • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Damion Schubert
                                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Damion Schubert
                  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Matt Chatterley
                  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Damion Schubert
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                    • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Amanda Walker
                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                  • [TECH DESIGN] Next Generation Infrastructure Phillip Lenhardt
                  • • [TECH DESIGN] Next Generation Infrastructure Lachek Butalek
                    • [TECH DESIGN] Next Generation Infrastructure Jeffrey Kesselman
                  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Adam Martin
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Amanda Walker
                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Adam Martin
                      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Amanda Walker
                        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Adam Martin
                      • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Daniel James
                    • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
                • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                  • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                      • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
                        • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
                    • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
                    • • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Phillip Lenhardt
                      • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
        • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
  • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
• Re:[Humor] MMORPG Cliches (was " A rant against MMORPG installs and initialuserexperience") Mike Rozak
• [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
• [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Adam Martin
• • [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Michael Sellers
• [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Raph Koster
• • [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Adam Martin
  • [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Jon Leonard
  • • [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Jeffrey Kesselman
    • [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Raph Koster
• [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Vincent Archer
• • [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Matt Chatterley
• [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system Michael Sellers
• • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system cruise
  • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Michael Sellers
    • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Sean Howard
      • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Caliban Darklock
    • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem John Buehler
    • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Lachek Butalek
    • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Raph Koster
    • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem cruise
      • • [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard'sdiplomacysystem Raph Koster
• [OFF-TOPIC] A rant for Vanguard DANIEL Harman
• • [OFF-TOPIC] A rant for Vanguard Sean Howard
  • • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry (Was: A rant for Vanguard) Nick Koranda
    • • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Sean Howard
      • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Morgan Ramsay
      • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Caliban Darklock
      • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Jeffrey Kesselman
      • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Adam Martin
      • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Christopher Allen
      • • [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Michael Sellers
• [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Raph Koster