February 2007
- [Design] Personal virtual worlds Lachek Butalek
- [Design] Personal virtual worlds Mike Rozak
- Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Nick Koranda
- Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Raph Koster
- [ALL PLEASE READ - FROM MODERATOR] Nick Koranda
- [Design] Avoiding the uncanny valley: cartoons and animals Mike Rozak
- stock market mechanisms in muds Johnicholas Hines
- stock market mechanisms in muds John Buehler
- stock market mechanisms in muds Acius
- stock market mechanisms in muds Daniel James
- stock market mechanisms in muds Matt Chatterley
- stock market mechanisms in muds Johnicholas Hines
- stock market mechanisms in muds Chapman, Greg
- Imaginary Realities mirror Richard Tew
- Imaginary Realities mirror Michael Hartman
- Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Peter Harkins
- [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Phillip Lenhardt
- [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Morris Cox
- [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? John Bertoglio
- [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Morris Cox
- [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Jeremy Noetzelman
- [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Alex Arnon
- [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? Squid
- Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Ghilardi Filippo
- Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Darryl Woodford
- stock market mechanisms in muds Raph Koster
- [DESIGN] AJAX Client/Servers? John Bertoglio
- [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personal virtual worlds] Mike Rozak
- [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] Michael Sellers
- [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personal virtual worlds] Caliban Darklock
- [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] John Buehler
- [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] Michael Sellers
- [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] Jeffrey Kesselman
- [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personalvirtual worlds] Caliban Darklock
- [Design]Characters moving between worlds [wasPersonalvirtual worlds] Dave Scheffer
- [Design]Characters moving between worlds [was Personal virtual worlds] Jeffrey Kesselman
- Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives Ghilardi Filippo
- [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Mike Rozak
- stock market mechanisms in muds Matt Chatterley
- stock market mechanisms in muds Peter Keeler
- stock market mechanisms in muds Johnicholas Hines
- [MUD-Dev2] Michael Sellers
- [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Jeffrey Kesselman
- Mailing List Alternatives (was Old MUD-Dev mailing list archives) Morgan Ramsay
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Lachek Butalek
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Jeffrey Kesselman
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
"Mike Rozak" <Mike@mxac.com.au> wrote:
> The fundamental flaws in vanguard are:
>
> 1) Been there, done that. I've played many-many DikuMMORPGs and CRPGs
> where you run around killing monsters and making armor.
I think at this point, that's what mass market MMORPGs are. It's a genre,
and you can't hold a genre you don't like against a game.
> 2) Been there, done that, with better specific implimentations, such as
> WoW.
Interesting. What specifically in WoW?
> In movie terms, the design error is like producing a movie with
> excellent special effects, but lousy acting.
Hey! I like Star Wars! :)
> 1) It's a valley! Where are my sweeping vistas that are USPs for
> vanguard?
Start a different character. The middle eastern guys start on top of a
mountain overlooking a port city by the sea.
> 3) This valley has elves standing around... that's all they do.
> ... did I mention: they just stand around. They look real (except that
> they don't move), and it's very obvious that they're vending machines.
This is the problem with every MMORPG I've ever played. Some MMORPGs try
to give the illusion of moving around, but then you'd just complain that
they just walked in circles all day and night. I think you are too busy
holding Vanguard against Vanguard that you never really bother
experiencing the real flaws.
> 4) I talk to a shopkeeper for a quest, and he (or she?) spew some
> standard pre-recorded nonesense about "Are you lost?" or "If you only
> knew the power I had" that has nothing to do with the quest.
Again, you are holding the genre against a genre game. But, I will say
that the diplomacy quests change that quite a bit.
> 5) Of course, my quests are to kill foozles, but not in any new and
> unique way.
What class did you play? It matters. Plus, I should also point out that
you are a level 1 character in a newbie area. Your options aren't exactly
overflowing. I just can't shake the feeling that you don't like the genre.
> 7) For my second character, I do a short diplomacy training tutorial. The
> game mechanics seem interesting, but it's not really integrated into the
> NPC interaction. Instead, the game is abstracted into a card game, and
> described as a card game... Why didn't they abstract combat into a card
> game too?
I really think you should stick witht he diplomacy stuff. The card game
remains simple, but the lore/interactions become more complex and
interesting. As much as you seem to rag on Vanguard for being traditional,
when it actually does something new and interesting, you don't seem too
willing to try it out.
> And while hobbit holes with round doors are expected, they're a little
> bit cliche, as well as the elven "city" being in giant tree from the
> first character.
Man, you know what I hate? Elves! And swords! Why can't they make games
with, I don't know, space ships and laser guns? Again, you are critiquing
a genre, not Vanguard.
> Even my short stay in the hobbit village uncovered sillyness: One NPC
> wanted some will-o-whisps killed for their fairy dust. Another one
> wanted them killed because they were scaring his cow (which was wanding
> nonchalently among the wisps). I got annoyed when WoW made me kill blue
> harpies, then green ones, then red ones. I got really annoyed killing
> the exact same monster in the exact same killing fields.
Those two activities don't seem exclusive. Perhaps you could've done them
simultaneously to double your reward for the same activity?
> 1) Everyone who plays vanguard has killed more than enough foozles in
> their life, and cast more than enough fireballs.
That's not a complaint levied against Vanguard. More against the fact that
Vanguard is a fantasy EQ-styled MMORPG. I've been playing online games
going back to when I was in 7th grade (I'm almost 30 now), and I'm still
not tired the same cliches when they are done right.
If you wanted to argue that Vanguard could've done them better, that's a
discussion I'd like to hear. Vanguard is a prototypical MMORPG in many
ways and a discussion about it would be a discussion about the cliches and
design patterns of online RPGs going WAY back. Think of how productive
such a discussion would be, even if it was the ten millionth time someone
had it! But that doesn't seem to be the discussion you want to have. You
just want to blame Vanguard for being Vanguard, and that doesn't sit well
with me.
> 2) Within the first 30 minutes, I should have seen an awe-inspiring
> vista.
Man, fixated much? Try other character types. It doesn't make sense for a
fox to start on a mountain, or a hobbit to start in the clouds, does it?
> 3) Within the first 30 minutes, I should have been given an inflatable
> raft and started enjoying Vanguard's USP ships.
Maybe not, but you will get a mount at level 10.
> 4) Within the first 30 minutes, I should have had a ride on a flying
> beasty,
I don't know. Flying mounts were a huge selling point of WoW's expansion,
but if you start from level 1, you still won't be seeing them for a while.
Flying mounts and ships are but two of a great many selling points, the
rest of which you can experience within the first 30 minutes. Gotta have
something to look forward to.
> 5) If Vanguard had spent only half the money on the combat sub-game
> (...) and put the other half of the money into dipomacy, they'd actually
> have a unique and interesting feature.
Play diplomacy past the tutorial. I might not defend all of Vanguard.
There are things I don't like about it (crafting sucks). But the diplomacy
really is a great new feature, and if you spent some time to learn about
stuff like civic diplomacy or some of the plans they have for the future,
I think you'll see that it is far deeper and more impressive than it seems
after five minutes with it.
> 6) NPCs should be signficiantly improved, as per Oblivion.
Not reasonable in an online game. There is, perhaps, a really lengthy and
interesting discussion as to why, but I'll just say that what you are
asking for is ultimately unimportant and not worth the effort. Remember,
you aren't alone. There are thousands of other players online with you.
NPCs need only be predictable and reliable, not realistic.
--
Sean Howard - [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
- genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] cruise
- genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Jeffrey Kesselman
- genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Jeffrey Kesselman
- genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] cruise
- genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Sean Howard
- genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Jeffrey Kesselman
- genre vs creativity [was: Rant against Vanguard] Damion Schubert
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Jeffrey Kesselman
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Adam Martin
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants cruise
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Damion Schubert
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Dana V. Baldwin
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Amanda Walker
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Dave Scheffer
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Phillip Lenhardt
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Caliban Darklock
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Vincent Archer
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Michael Sellers
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Caliban Darklock
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Dana V. Baldwin
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Caliban Darklock
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Michael Hartman
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Dana V. Baldwin
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Vincent Archer
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Michael Hartman
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Damion Schubert
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Damion Schubert
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Matt Chatterley
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Damion Schubert
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Amanda Walker
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
- [TECH DESIGN] Next Generation Infrastructure Phillip Lenhardt
- [TECH DESIGN] Next Generation Infrastructure Lachek Butalek
- [TECH DESIGN] Next Generation Infrastructure Jeffrey Kesselman
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Adam Martin
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Amanda Walker
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Adam Martin
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Amanda Walker
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Daniel James
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Richard A. Bartle
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Phillip Lenhardt
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants John Buehler
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Sean Howard
- Re:[Humor] MMORPG Cliches (was " A rant against MMORPG installs and initialuserexperience") Mike Rozak
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants Mike Rozak
- [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Adam Martin
- [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Michael Sellers
- [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Raph Koster
- [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Adam Martin
- [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Jon Leonard
- [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Jeffrey Kesselman
- [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Raph Koster
- [Design] A rant against MMORPG installs and initial user experience Vincent Archer
- [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system Michael Sellers
- [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system cruise
- [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Michael Sellers
- [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Lachek Butalek
- [DESIGN] Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacysystem Raph Koster
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant for Vanguard DANIEL Harman
- [OFF-TOPIC] A rant for Vanguard Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry (Was: A rant for Vanguard) Nick Koranda
- [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Morgan Ramsay
- [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Adam Martin
- [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Industry Christopher Allen
- [DESIGN] Music Industry teaching the Game Michael Sellers
- [OFF-TOPIC] GDC (and hello all) Raph Koster