February 2004
- Solutions for smarter NPCs (long) Robert Zubek
- TECH: newbie, mud over jabber im cr88192
- Randomness Alex Chacha
- Randomness David Kennerly
- Randomness Alex Chacha
- UI Design Adam
- MCP/GUIs (was: MUD client popularity) Bruce Mitchener
- [DGN] A comparison of adolescent and adult online computer game players Luca Girardo
- Discussion groups at the MDC Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Different Style of Online Games Stewart Berntson
- Too much magic? Brian Hook
- Too much magic? Michael "Flury" Chui
- Too much magic? John Buehler
- Too much magic? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Too much magic? John Buehler
- Too much magic? Corey Crawford
- Too much magic? cruise
- Too much magic? Brian Hook
- Too much magic? Richard A. Bartle
- Too much magic? Brian Hook
- Too much magic? Paul Canniff
- Too much magic? cruise
- Too much magic? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Too much magic? Ben Hawes
- Too much magic? Miroslav Silovic
- Weather simulations Nathan Black
- Weather simulations Spot
- Weather simulations Shane P. Lee
- Weather simulations Valerio Santinelli
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Dan Larsen
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Brian Hook
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Koster, Raph
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Brian Hook
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Jay Carlson
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Damion Schubert
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Jim Purbrick
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Jim Purbrick
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Sean Middleditch
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Lars Duening
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Ben Garney
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Acius
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Richard A. Bartle
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Patrick Dughi
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? gbtmud
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Kwon J. Ekstrom
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? James Pepe
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers J C Lawrence
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers ext.Christer.Enfors@tietoenator.com
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Koster, Raph
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Daniel James
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Fred Snyder
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Michael Sellers
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Tom Hunter
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Luca Girardo
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Luca Girardo
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. rjw
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Paul Schwanz
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Paul Schwanz
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Paul Schwanz
- Character Restraint & Capture. Damion Schubert
- Character Restraint & Capture. Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Paul Schwanz
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Damion Schubert
- Character Restraint & Capture. Byron Ellacott
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Damion Schubert
- Character Restraint & Capture. Marian Griffith
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Character Restraint & Capture. cruise
- Character Restraint & Capture. Paul Schwanz
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Valerio Santinelli
- Character Restraint & Capture. Craig H Fry
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jim Purbrick
- Character Restraint & Capture. Michael Sellers
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. cruise
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Tess Snider
- Character Restraint & Capture. Eric Random
- Player generated quests wcoles@reflectionsinteractive.com
- Player generated quests cruise
- Player generated quests Artur Biesiadowski
- Player generated quests Alex Chacha
- Player generated quests Mike Shaver
- Player generated quests Talanithus Tarant
- Quick question SSL Christopher Allen
- Quick question SSL ceo
- Quick question SSL sziisoft
- Quick question SSL Jo Dillon
- Quick question SSL Matthew D. Fuller
- Quick question SSL ceo
- Quick question SSL szii@sziisoft.com
- Quick question SSL Travis Casey
- Quick question SSL Tamzen Cannoy
- Quick question SSL ceo
- Quick question SSL Byron Ellacott
- Quick question SSL Alex Chacha
- Quick question SSL Sean Middleditch
- Mythica Cancelled.. dienw
- Mythica Cancelled.. Kerry Fraser-Robinson
- Mythica Cancelled.. David H. Loeser Jr
- Mythica Cancelled.. Vincent Archer
- Mythica Cancelled.. Vincent Archer
- Mythica Cancelled.. Michael Sellers
- Mythica Cancelled.. Scott Jennings
- Mythica Cancelled.. szii@sziisoft.com
- Mythica Cancelled.. Valerio Santinelli
- Mythica Cancelled.. Damion Schubert
- Mythica Cancelled.. Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Mythica Cancelled.. Bill Slease
- Mythica Cancelled.. Freeman, Jeff
- Mythica Cancelled.. Tom "cro" Gordon
- [Design] Meta-physics Engine cruise
- RE:Character Restraint & Capture. Chris Duesing
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Economic model.. Mike Lescault
- Economic model.. Robert Kovalchick
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Economic model.. Matt Mihaly
- Economic model.. brian@thyer.net
- Economic model.. Matt Mihaly
- Economic model.. Matt
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Economic model.. cruise
- Economic model.. brian@thyer.net
- Economic model.. cruise
- Economic model.. Thomas Clive Richards
- Economic model.. Michael Sellers
- Economic model.. Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic model.. Michael Sellers
- Economic model.. Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
From: Michael Sellers [mailto:mike@onlinealchemy.com]
> Notice I said "easy arbitrage." Arbitrage is at the heart of any
> viable market: you buy something for $ and sell it for $$. But
> along the way (at least outside of modern currency and similar
> markets), some form of value is typically added: the form of the
> resource is changed, convenience or utility is increased, or in
> the most basic sense, the resource is made more local. For
> example, if you mine some ore and then bring it to town to sell
> it, you've increased the ore's utility and convenience for others,
> and they are willing to pay some amount for that.
That's not arbitrage though, that's manufacturing. From a financial
perspective arb means :
A trading strategy that looks to take advantage of price differences
of the same security, currency or commodity, trading on different
exchanges. Since the onset of faster computers and communication
lines this trading strategy has become much more
difficult. Arbitrage trading may also refer to trading on price
differences between stocks and the underlying stock index options or
futures.
http://www.investordictionary.com/finance/dictionary/define306.aspx
> However, in many games (and the Habitat cupie-doll incident is
> probably still the canonical version of this) what happens is that
> players are able to obtain some resource for no real cost and then
> sell it for an artificially inflated cost -- they've added no
> value or utility, increased no convenience, etc. This quickly
> turns into a gameplay-killing treadmill (of the more literal sort,
> not the leveling treadmill) where you get money but feel no real
> reward -- this IMO is a large part of what's wrong with the
> quasi-crafting skill games in The Sims Online. Further, if this
> injection of money is made from a limitless supply -- there's
> always someone to buy your goods at some inflated price -- then
> hyper-inflation is the inevitable result.
There are established methods to manage this type of problem from
the real world though. If its happening a lot then the transaction
cost is too low, and somehow the people forcing the price up have
been handed a monopoly. I would argue that this kind of arb is a
symptom of underlying problems in the economy and not the cause.
>> In Everquest, players moan about traders who buy up items
>> immediately from impatient sellers at a discount and then put
>> them back on the market for more. Is this more what you are
>> referring to? If so I don't even see that as proper arb, its
>> simply taking a position on the market.
> I really don't have a problem with that sort of thing; as you say
> it's just taking a position on the market. Now imagine if you had
> a fluctuating import/export market as I described earlier, and
> could take future positions on a resource -- some very interesting
> market dynamics become available that could actually provide
> strong gameplay for players inclined this way.
Definitely, although encoding indicators so that people could
intelligently make investment decisions would be an interesting
challenge. Especially if you don't want it to be easily
gameable. Certainly possible though imho, but it might require
complex support systems such as farming etc.
>> Personally I'd love games to setup markets that took a few
>> lessons from the real world markets, and facilitated more complex
>> trading strategies. Its would add an interesting axis of
>> entertainment to the game. The first things to add would be
>> player leasing of ships/vehicles (required for goods transport),
>> insurance markets, contracts (should be limited so that humans
>> are not required to arbitrate), multiple exchanges with limited
>> memberships (creates arb opportunities), commodities markets
>> (with seasonal variations etc). Maybe I'm biased though because I
>> work in investment banking ;)
> I think you're right (and I'm not an investment banker). The
> economic simulations in games thus far have been incredibly
> simplistic caricatures -- and more, I think, because the
> developers don't understand the gameplay dynamics that can be
> extracted from markets than because the players aren't interested
> in them.
> I'm not sure I'd want to unleash the full force of things like
> factoring or shorting in markets, as these can become quickly
> bewildering. But having an actual basis for trade with localized
> goods, time/risk/cost to transport, costs and various forms of
> loss and "friction" in manufacturing -- these could all add an
> amazing component that gets beyond the eternal search for more
> phat l00t.
Shorting is pretty essential, without it you can't take a bearish
position on the market. Factoring is a lot trickier, as are all debt
driven mechanics. The only way to make any of them to work is to
permit only secured lending in game. Otherwise people will just
fraudulently close game accounts when things start to go wrong
whilst passing resources to their new characters. Allowing factoring
doesn't really work if you accept the limitation I suggest as people
will be leveraged well beyond their secureable borrowing
potential. Then again a LTCM type event in game might be quite
interesting to watch unfold ;)
Another great thing about implementing financial markets is that
players don't have to understand them fully to enjoy them. Just look
at the average Joe buying stocks - its no better than randomly
gambling if, but that doesn't stop people.
If one really wanted to go to town, and this probably wouldn't
appeal to many except me, you could offer live market data feeds at
protocol level and people could write trading tools. I'd love to
apply some strategies through an autotrader like that. The fact that
http://www.eqecon.com exists suggest that people are interested in
running technical analysis on in game prices so maybe it wouldn't be
as niche as one might think.
Dan
- Economic model.. Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Economic model.. Marian Griffith
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Economic model.. Francisco Gutierrez
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Brian Hook
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Roy Sutton
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Chris Duesing
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Byron Ellacott
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) szii@sziisoft.com
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) John Buehler
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Byron Ellacott
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Byron Ellacott
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Jester
- Economic model (long) Jester
- Announce: MUD-Dev Conference J C Lawrence