February 2004
- Solutions for smarter NPCs (long) Robert Zubek
- TECH: newbie, mud over jabber im cr88192
- Randomness Alex Chacha
- Randomness David Kennerly
- Randomness Alex Chacha
- UI Design Adam
- MCP/GUIs (was: MUD client popularity) Bruce Mitchener
- [DGN] A comparison of adolescent and adult online computer game players Luca Girardo
- Discussion groups at the MDC Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Different Style of Online Games Stewart Berntson
- Too much magic? Brian Hook
- Too much magic? Michael "Flury" Chui
- Too much magic? John Buehler
- Too much magic? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Too much magic? John Buehler
- Too much magic? Corey Crawford
- Too much magic? cruise
- Too much magic? Brian Hook
- Too much magic? Richard A. Bartle
- Too much magic? Brian Hook
- Too much magic? Paul Canniff
- Too much magic? cruise
- Too much magic? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Too much magic? Ben Hawes
- Too much magic? Miroslav Silovic
- Weather simulations Nathan Black
- Weather simulations Spot
- Weather simulations Shane P. Lee
- Weather simulations Valerio Santinelli
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Dan Larsen
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Brian Hook
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Koster, Raph
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Brian Hook
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Jay Carlson
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Damion Schubert
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Jim Purbrick
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Jim Purbrick
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Sean Middleditch
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Lars Duening
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Ben Garney
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Acius
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Richard A. Bartle
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Patrick Dughi
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? gbtmud
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Kwon J. Ekstrom
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? James Pepe
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers J C Lawrence
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers ext.Christer.Enfors@tietoenator.com
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Koster, Raph
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Daniel James
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Fred Snyder
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Michael Sellers
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Tom Hunter
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Luca Girardo
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Luca Girardo
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. rjw
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Paul Schwanz
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Paul Schwanz
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Paul Schwanz
- Character Restraint & Capture. Damion Schubert
- Character Restraint & Capture. Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Paul Schwanz
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004, Jester wrote:
> Matt Mihaly wrote:
>> We put this kind of system into Achaea years ago and subsequently
>> removed it. It's just another tool for grief play.
> I think that 'this type of system' is a very broad categorization
> that IMHO shouldn't be applied to rjw's thoughts or any other
> future systems without due consideration to the details of the
> individual implimentation. Sorry it didn't work for you but as
> they say 'the devil's in the details' :)
Well, considering he/you (don't remember who the original poster
was) described essentially the exact system we tried, I'm going to
disagree.
> I strongly disagree with this as IMHO addressing the in game
> justice will address the out of game justice. If a player sees
> their killer brought to justice and forced to pay them reperation
> then why would they leave the game?
Because the killer is no more likely to be "brought to justice" than
the killee is to be "brought to justice." (ie killed via this bounty
system). What's stopping a city from making laws that absolutely do
not fit with any out-of-game sense of justice? How about, "All
dwarves are evil and must be eliminated on sight." What does that
have to do with out-of-game justice?
A game system does not know what 'justice' is and it is not
conceivable that a game system will be able to recognize it without
sophisticated AI WAY beyond what currently exists even in research
labs.
>> Instead, the bounty system applies to the second kind of
>> 'justice', in which justice is defined merely as punishing
>> lawbreakers. The laws in question here are being made by the
>> players running the cities, and they may or may not have anything
>> to do with the first kind of justice.
> You make the presumtion that the laws players set will not be
> within a framework where the system owner can set boundaries.
I know they won't be. Justice is a very nuanced, complicated
concept. There is no known way to represent it in code, even
ignoring the fact that there's no such thing as objective justice.
Of course, the caveat here is that you could have human admins
overseeing everything. That's how our OOC PK rules work, since code
is incapable of a sufficient level of nuance for our purposes. (For
instance, code cannot recognize that you just broke an agreement
with me to stay loyal to my cult by plotting against the cult with
the enemy.) Even with our human admins though, we're forced to limit
the level of nuance we'll permit in arguments from players accused
of illegal PK. Takes too much of their time otherwise.
>> Further, as a practical problem this kind of system is eminently
>> gameable in the case of an NPC just creating gold to give out. If
>> the gold that the NPC pays out is simply created from nothing,
>> cities will place bounties on mule characters or even their
>> buddies, in order to generate free gold.
> This is a very implimentation specific illustration as neither I
> in my orginal post or rjw in the followup state the intention to
> use 'free' gold I also think that how gameable a system is depends
> on the robustness of the underlying concept and the attention to
> detail given to the details of the implimentation.
So write out a design or show me a workable example. I'm just giving
you the benefit of 7+ years of practical, commercial, hands-on
design/admin-side experience.
--matt - Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Damion Schubert
- Character Restraint & Capture. Byron Ellacott
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Damion Schubert
- Character Restraint & Capture. Marian Griffith
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Character Restraint & Capture. cruise
- Character Restraint & Capture. Paul Schwanz
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Valerio Santinelli
- Character Restraint & Capture. Craig H Fry
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jim Purbrick
- Character Restraint & Capture. Michael Sellers
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. cruise
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Tess Snider
- Character Restraint & Capture. Eric Random
- Player generated quests wcoles@reflectionsinteractive.com
- Player generated quests cruise
- Player generated quests Artur Biesiadowski
- Player generated quests Alex Chacha
- Player generated quests Mike Shaver
- Player generated quests Talanithus Tarant
- Quick question SSL Christopher Allen
- Quick question SSL ceo
- Quick question SSL sziisoft
- Quick question SSL Jo Dillon
- Quick question SSL Matthew D. Fuller
- Quick question SSL ceo
- Quick question SSL szii@sziisoft.com
- Quick question SSL Travis Casey
- Quick question SSL Tamzen Cannoy
- Quick question SSL ceo
- Quick question SSL Byron Ellacott
- Quick question SSL Alex Chacha
- Quick question SSL Sean Middleditch
- Mythica Cancelled.. dienw
- Mythica Cancelled.. Kerry Fraser-Robinson
- Mythica Cancelled.. David H. Loeser Jr
- Mythica Cancelled.. Vincent Archer
- Mythica Cancelled.. Vincent Archer
- Mythica Cancelled.. Michael Sellers
- Mythica Cancelled.. Scott Jennings
- Mythica Cancelled.. szii@sziisoft.com
- Mythica Cancelled.. Valerio Santinelli
- Mythica Cancelled.. Damion Schubert
- Mythica Cancelled.. Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Mythica Cancelled.. Bill Slease
- Mythica Cancelled.. Freeman, Jeff
- Mythica Cancelled.. Tom "cro" Gordon
- [Design] Meta-physics Engine cruise
- RE:Character Restraint & Capture. Chris Duesing
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Economic model.. Mike Lescault
- Economic model.. Robert Kovalchick
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Economic model.. Matt Mihaly
- Economic model.. brian@thyer.net
- Economic model.. Matt Mihaly
- Economic model.. Matt
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Economic model.. cruise
- Economic model.. brian@thyer.net
- Economic model.. cruise
- Economic model.. Thomas Clive Richards
- Economic model.. Michael Sellers
- Economic model.. Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic model.. Michael Sellers
- Economic model.. Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Economic model.. Marian Griffith
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Economic model.. Francisco Gutierrez
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Brian Hook
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Roy Sutton
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Chris Duesing
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Byron Ellacott
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) szii@sziisoft.com
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) John Buehler
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Byron Ellacott
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Byron Ellacott
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Jester
- Economic model (long) Jester
- Announce: MUD-Dev Conference J C Lawrence