February 2004
- Solutions for smarter NPCs (long) Robert Zubek
- TECH: newbie, mud over jabber im cr88192
- Randomness Alex Chacha
- Randomness David Kennerly
- Randomness Alex Chacha
- UI Design Adam
- MCP/GUIs (was: MUD client popularity) Bruce Mitchener
- [DGN] A comparison of adolescent and adult online computer game players Luca Girardo
- Discussion groups at the MDC Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Different Style of Online Games Stewart Berntson
- Too much magic? Brian Hook
- Too much magic? Michael "Flury" Chui
- Too much magic? John Buehler
- Too much magic? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Too much magic? John Buehler
- Too much magic? Corey Crawford
- Too much magic? cruise
- Too much magic? Brian Hook
- Too much magic? Richard A. Bartle
- Too much magic? Brian Hook
- Too much magic? Paul Canniff
- Too much magic? cruise
- Too much magic? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Too much magic? Ben Hawes
- Too much magic? Miroslav Silovic
- Weather simulations Nathan Black
- Weather simulations Spot
- Weather simulations Shane P. Lee
- Weather simulations Valerio Santinelli
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Dan Larsen
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Brian Hook
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Koster, Raph
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Brian Hook
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Jay Carlson
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Damion Schubert
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Jim Purbrick
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Jim Purbrick
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Sean Middleditch
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Lars Duening
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Ben Garney
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Acius
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Richard A. Bartle
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Patrick Dughi
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? gbtmud
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? Kwon J. Ekstrom
- How much should be offloaded to Scripting? James Pepe
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers J C Lawrence
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers ext.Christer.Enfors@tietoenator.com
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Koster, Raph
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Daniel James
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Fred Snyder
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Michael Sellers
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Tom Hunter
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Luca Girardo
- Media: Women over 40 biggest online gamers Luca Girardo
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. rjw
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Paul Schwanz
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Paul Schwanz
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Paul Schwanz
- Character Restraint & Capture. Damion Schubert
- Character Restraint & Capture. Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Paul Schwanz
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Matt Mihaly
- Character Restraint & Capture. Damion Schubert
- Character Restraint & Capture. Byron Ellacott
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Damion Schubert
- Character Restraint & Capture. Marian Griffith
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Character Restraint & Capture. cruise
- Character Restraint & Capture. Paul Schwanz
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Valerio Santinelli
- Character Restraint & Capture. Craig H Fry
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jim Purbrick
- Character Restraint & Capture. Michael Sellers
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. cruise
- Character Restraint & Capture. Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture. Tess Snider
- Character Restraint & Capture. Eric Random
- Player generated quests wcoles@reflectionsinteractive.com
- Player generated quests cruise
- Player generated quests Artur Biesiadowski
- Player generated quests Alex Chacha
- Player generated quests Mike Shaver
- Player generated quests Talanithus Tarant
- Quick question SSL Christopher Allen
- Quick question SSL ceo
- Quick question SSL sziisoft
- Quick question SSL Jo Dillon
- Quick question SSL Matthew D. Fuller
- Quick question SSL ceo
- Quick question SSL szii@sziisoft.com
- Quick question SSL Travis Casey
- Quick question SSL Tamzen Cannoy
- Quick question SSL ceo
- Quick question SSL Byron Ellacott
- Quick question SSL Alex Chacha
- Quick question SSL Sean Middleditch
- Mythica Cancelled.. dienw
- Mythica Cancelled.. Kerry Fraser-Robinson
- Mythica Cancelled.. David H. Loeser Jr
- Mythica Cancelled.. Vincent Archer
- Mythica Cancelled.. Vincent Archer
- Mythica Cancelled.. Michael Sellers
- Mythica Cancelled.. Scott Jennings
- Mythica Cancelled.. szii@sziisoft.com
- Mythica Cancelled.. Valerio Santinelli
- Mythica Cancelled.. Damion Schubert
- Mythica Cancelled.. Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Mythica Cancelled.. Bill Slease
- Mythica Cancelled.. Freeman, Jeff
- Mythica Cancelled.. Tom "cro" Gordon
- [Design] Meta-physics Engine cruise
- RE:Character Restraint & Capture. Chris Duesing
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Economic model.. Mike Lescault
- Economic model.. Robert Kovalchick
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Economic model.. Matt Mihaly
- Economic model.. brian@thyer.net
- Economic model.. Matt Mihaly
- Economic model.. Matt
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Economic model.. cruise
- Economic model.. brian@thyer.net
- Economic model.. cruise
- Economic model.. Thomas Clive Richards
- Economic model.. Michael Sellers
- Economic model.. Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic model.. Michael Sellers
Daniel Harman wrote
> Michael Sellers Wrote on 25 February 2004 04:06
>> This model also helps remove the incentive for easy arbitrage,
>> where
>> an item is bought for one price in one place and sold at a much
>> greater price someplace close by, without adding any value to the
>> resource. This effect along with hyper-inflation has been the
>> bane of in-game economies going all the way back to Habitat.
> What is the issue with arb? Real markets have plenty of it, and
> its one of the mechanisms that keeps the markets efficient. The
> only possible problem I could see is if people can buy enough of a
> resource to control the prices on it.
Notice I said "easy arbitrage." Arbitrage is at the heart of any
viable market: you buy something for $ and sell it for $$. But
along the way (at least outside of modern currency and similar
markets), some form of value is typically added: the form of the
resource is changed, convenience or utility is increased, or in the
most basic sense, the resource is made more local. For example, if
you mine some ore and then bring it to town to sell it, you've
increased the ore's utility and convenience for others, and they are
willing to pay some amount for that.
However, in many games (and the Habitat cupie-doll incident is
probably still the canonical version of this) what happens is that
players are able to obtain some resource for no real cost and then
sell it for an artificially inflated cost -- they've added no value
or utility, increased no convenience, etc. This quickly turns into
a gameplay-killing treadmill (of the more literal sort, not the
leveling treadmill) where you get money but feel no real reward --
this IMO is a large part of what's wrong with the quasi-crafting
skill games in The Sims Online. Further, if this injection of money
is made from a limitless supply -- there's always someone to buy
your goods at some inflated price -- then hyper-inflation is the
inevitable result.
> In Everquest, players moan about traders who buy up items
> immediately from impatient sellers at a discount and then put them
> back on the market for more. Is this more what you are referring
> to? If so I don't even see that as proper arb, its simply taking a
> position on the market.
I really don't have a problem with that sort of thing; as you say
it's just taking a position on the market. Now imagine if you had a
fluctuating import/export market as I described earlier, and could
take future positions on a resource -- some very interesting market
dynamics become available that could actually provide strong
gameplay for players inclined this way.
> Personally I'd love games to setup markets that took a few lessons
> from the real world markets, and facilitated more complex trading
> strategies. Its would add an interesting axis of entertainment to
> the game. The first things to add would be player leasing of
> ships/vehicles (required for goods transport), insurance markets,
> contracts (should be limited so that humans are not required to
> arbitrate), multiple exchanges with limited memberships (creates
> arb opportunities), commodities markets (with seasonal variations
> etc). Maybe I'm biased though because I work in investment banking
> ;)
I think you're right (and I'm not an investment banker). The
economic simulations in games thus far have been incredibly
simplistic caricatures -- and more, I think, because the developers
don't understand the gameplay dynamics that can be extracted from
markets than because the players aren't interested in them.
I'm not sure I'd want to unleash the full force of things like
factoring or shorting in markets, as these can become quickly
bewildering. But having an actual basis for trade with localized
goods, time/risk/cost to transport, costs and various forms of loss
and "friction" in manufacturing -- these could all add an amazing
component that gets beyond the eternal search for more phat l00t.
Mike Sellers
Online Alchemy - Economic model.. Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Economic model.. Michael Sellers
- Economic model.. Marian Griffith
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Economic model.. Francisco Gutierrez
- Economic model.. Brian Thyer
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Brian Hook
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Roy Sutton
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Chris Duesing
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Byron Ellacott
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) szii@sziisoft.com
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) John Buehler
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Byron Ellacott
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Jester
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Byron Ellacott
- Character Restraint & Capture (bounty hunting) Jester
- Economic model (long) Jester
- Announce: MUD-Dev Conference J C Lawrence