September 2003
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Jim Purbrick
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks J C Lawrence
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Bruce Mitchener
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Jim Purbrick
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Bruce Mitchener
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks J C Lawrence
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Roy Riggs
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Jim Purbrick
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Sean Kelly
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Mike Shaver
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Eamonn O'Brien
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks ceo
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks ceo
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Lazarus
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Jeff Thompson
- [Tech] Garbage collection Brian Hook
- [Tech] Garbage collection Lars Duening
- [Tech] Garbage collection Bruce Mitchener
- [Tech] Garbage collection Jay Carlson
- TECH: Question about Bartle's new book Christer Enfors
- TECH: Question about Bartle's new book Richard A. Bartle
- Generating Cities John Arras
- Load Testing a MUD sszretter@hotmail.com
- Load Testing a MUD Ren Reynolds
- Load Testing a MUD Ben Greear
- Load Testing a MUD Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Load Testing a MUD Matthew D. Fuller
- Load Testing a MUD Marc Bowden
- Load Testing a MUD Lars Duening
- Load Testing a MUD Marc Bowden
- [DGN] Writing... a mud... erich-herz@uiowa.edu
- [DGN] Writing... a mud... Amanda Walker
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Yaka St.Aise
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Matt Mihaly
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Yaka St.Aise
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Michael Chui
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Amanda Walker
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Matthew Dobervich
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Justin Randall
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Yaka St.Aise
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Chris Duesing
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Crosbie Fitch
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Yaka St.Aise
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. John Buehler
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Corpheous Andrakin
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Scott Jennings
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matthew Dobervich
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Daniel Anderson
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Mike Shaver
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Daniel Stahl
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Tamzen Cannoy
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Mike Shaver
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? ceo
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Nathan Yospe
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Linder Support Team
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Marian Griffith
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Michael Chui
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Paul Schwanz
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? J C Lawrence
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Amanda Walker
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Jeff Cole
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Jeff Cole
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Amanda Walker
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Marian Griffith
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Jeff Cole
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Michael Chui
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Marian Griffith
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Jeff Cole
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? ceo
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? ceo
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Scott Jennings
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Daniel Anderson
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Scott Jennings
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? ren@aldermangroup.com
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Dave Rickey
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Baar - Lord of the Seven Suns
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Michael Chui
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ryan S. Dancey
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? John Buehler
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Dave Rickey
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Amanda Walker
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Amanda Walker
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Amanda Walker
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Marian Griffith
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Chris Mancil
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Zach Collins {Siege}
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Tamzen Cannoy
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Daniel Anderson
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Koster, Raph
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Scott Jennings
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Martin Bassie
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Chris Holko
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? burra@alum.rpi.edu
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Scott Jennings
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Daniel Anderson
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Matt Mihaly
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Threshold RPG
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Jason Smith
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 4, Issue 5 Jessica Mulligan
- [Tech] Functional languages Brian Hook
- [Tech] Functional languages ceo
- [Tech] Functional languages Brian Hook
- [Tech] Functional languages Kim
- [Tech] Functional languages J C Lawrence
- [Tech] Functional languages Joshua Judson Rosen
- [Tech] Functional languages sproctor@ccs.neu.edu
- SW:G Matt Mihaly
- Grief teaching? (Was: Why doesn't Lineage count asthe most pop burra@alum.rpi.edu
- Grief teaching? (Was: Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever?) ghovs
- Grief teaching? (Was: Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever?) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- R: MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 4, Issue 5 Ghilardi Filippo
- Ghostmode (was: SW:G) Lars Duening
- Ghostmode (was: SW:G) Michael Tresca
- Ghostmode (was: SW:G) Marian Griffith
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 4, Issue 5 Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who holds your cahonas in their hand? (runs your infrastructure...; ) ceo
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Tess Lowe
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Amanda Walker
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Vladimir Cole
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Erik Bethke
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Erik Bethke
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Amanda Walker
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Corpheous Andrakin
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Mike Shaver
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Amanda Walker
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Vladimir Cole
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Lars Duening
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Peter Harkins
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Lars Duening
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Marian Griffith
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Scott Moore
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Justin Coleman
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Amanda Walker
- ghost mode (was SW:G) David Cooksey
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Marian Griffith
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Rayzam
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Amanda Walker
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Rayzam
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Amanda Walker
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Marian Griffith
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Amanda Walker
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Rayzam
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Amanda Walker
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Corpheous Andrakin
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Amanda Walker
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Spot
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Acius
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Rayzam
- ghost mode (was SW:G) J C Lawrence
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:18:45 -0600
acius <acius@hedwig.simud.org> wrote:
> You can avoid this sharp threshold by having a smoothly sliding scale
> -- so there is no gateway of financial doom, but rather you lose a few
> more cents a month every time you gain another experience
> point. Either way, though, it's still a loyalty tax.
I've been musing on the definitions and implications of "levels", their
somewhat immutable nature (or do they really need to be immutable?), the
implications of level immutability on social formation and peer groups,
and the more interesting metrics which levels simplify and attempt to
aggregate.
I'm not interested in defining levels -- that's been done and well.
I'm also not arguing that levels are a Bad Thing, as some form of
tangible progress indication appears necessary to GoP games. What I
am interested in is playing with the concept and seeing if something
refreshing can be done.
Early conclusions for almost all level cases:
A) Level are usually implemented as a single "maxxed" scalar, where
"maxxed" indicates that it has the maximal value of a defined range,
can have no other value, and that it inherits the properties of all
lesser values within that range.
B) Levels are uneditable except for (typically) linear progression
along a well defined and constant treadmill/ladder (which in turn is
largely the purpose of levels).
C) Level values are tightly bound to characters, and are neither
separable or mobile.
D) Changes in level value very rarely require any cost mechanics,
in-game or out.
E) At a social formation and cultural definition level, "level" is a
rather complex term that has many implications, both useful and not,
in regard to group formation, peerage, status, and identity
recognition/sustenance.
F) In GoP games level is a fundamental metric in producing and
maintaining social hierarchies.
Note that I am explicitly not distinguishing between singular level
values and complex skill mesh/distributions. They're both levels, just
in different clothing and variant numbers of bells and whistles. In the
complex cases humans tend to reduce the complex values down to a
singular expression in a single linear scale.
None of these 6 conclusions above are surprising, but itemised, they are
interesting to consider and subvert. Quick musing extrapolated 5
principles I found interesting, not in themselves, but in how they could
be made to collide with each other:
1) levels need not be a simple maxxed scalar
2) levels need not be fixed
3) levels can be fungible, within a player or character, among
characters, players or other game objects, or even with RL and RL
systems
4) there can be multiple forms of level transformations and
transactions, both within a character, a game system, a player,
multiple players, the intersection of the game world and RL, etc.
5) other surrounding metrics can partially supplant, support, and
amplify any new definition of "level". The assumption of singularity
is not necessary.
Simple points, and all previously discussed on the list. However all
the intersections haven't been so well covered. Each of the 6 in
principle is an assumption. They are an assumption of a commonly
understood model that is appealing as it readily communicates and won't
negatively surprise players. However, like most assumptions, they're
also deceptive as the real assumptions are more basic and less examined.
Unedited thoughts (these are rough):
1) Allow a character to arbitrarily reset his level and all related
statistics to ant value (eg slider controls).
a) For the literal, events and accomplishments of a character are
logged against the range of levels used during the accomplishment.
There are exploit vectors in here for GoP games related to variance
of level within an accomplishment, as well as detecting the real
beginning and end of an accomplishment action.
b) A secondary statistic, "renown", could be scaled or increased
proportionally to how much lower the character's level was than the
"par" for that accomplishment. Of course this then makes renown a
component statistic of level, and arguably not subject to such free
wheeling editing.
2) Each character has a set of "skill points". These are allocated in
various ways to form the skill mesh of that particular character. The
total number of skill points on a character is fixed and never changes
over the lifetime of the character. In the early stages of a game or
character some may be allocated to the category "nothing", in which
case they represent potential and unassigned talent.
a) A second character attribute, the equivalent of "level" marks the
character's ability to redistribute his skill points among
categories. A high level character can edit his own allocations and
readily make wide sweeping changes to his skill matrix.
i) Such changes could bear a cost, reducing the ability or
rapidity with which such future changes may be made.
ii) Such edits could have a latency which is proportional to the
magnitude of the change. Thus rapid re-definition of a character
as a functional method of problem accomplishment would be
discouraged.
iii) Having selected a new distribution, the rate at which the
character mutates into the new form can be a function of the level
of the character. Thus higher level characters could mutate more
or less quickly (which ever fits your model better). with the
mutation itself bearing either a constant or proportional cost
based on arbitrary factors.
3) A character may pick a level which is "higher" than his current
setting at any time. Upon picking a new level the character must then
pass one or more "tests" (gating factors). Should the tests be passed
the new level assignment becomes permanent.
a) The other related characteristics of the new level could be
instantiated before or after the tests are passed.
b) The character could:
i ) be restricted from world participation until the test(s) are
passed
ii) have limited functionality in the general world until the
tests are passed.
iii) have the full functionality of the requested level, but have
to pay a fee (real $$$ or in-game value)
-- the fee could be waived if the new level is validated within
a defined period
-- the fee could be proportional to the savoire faire detected
in character behaviour while the condition was pending,
adjudicated mechanically or thru a function of the other game
players.
-- have the cost of the new level (real world or game world) be
a function of how the tests were passed (speed, time, detected
effort, other character participation, etc).
4) Each character has a level range. As the character advances the
level range grows. The character may set his "level" to any value
within the range.
a) Changing the level value could bear costs.
b) "Range" could be given to other characters at a cost to the
donating player. Possible payment forms include real world (eg
$$$), game value (eg reduced level, reduced level range, lost items
etc), action requirements (eg must perform quest), or assumed
limitation (eg character assumes a liability or (temporarily or
permanently) loses an ability).
5) An edited character (level, skill allocation, whatever) could loose
relevance to the game world. This could be as simple as loss of
identity definition (name, species, guild affiliation, etc), location
(new character is located in arbitrary new/distant spot), etc.
6) Having requested a level change the adjustment could happen in
various ways:
a) instantly (pending other criteria as above)
b) gradually (possibly with associated costs)
c) gradually, but with a starting position far lower than the
current position.
i) In the case of the re-allocation form, the total number of
"skill points" allocated to the player could be reduced (eg
minimum of each range value), and then gradually approach the
requested value.
d) as a stair-step or laddered function of other in-game behaviour
(test, quest, whatever).
Other thoughts:
Skills can be zero sum games in and of themselves. A skill is a
specialisation. Each skill can be accompanied by a proportional
liability. You get better at XXX, but are more subject/worse-at YYY.
ie trade-offs. Jack-of-all-trades is nearly ideal, but sucks to
play as they're good at nothing. Experts are wonderful at their
specialty, but are risky to play due to their incapacities.
Levels can be made a negative sum game: each gain made is at the cost
of larger/more expensive losses/liabilities.
This would seem particularly interesting the more competent a given
character becomes in a particular skill.
--
J C Lawrence
---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas.
claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh?
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live.
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Mike Shaver
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Smith, David {Lynchburg}
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Eli Stevens
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- ghost mode (was SW:G) Amanda Walker
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [DGN]: Ludicrous speed. Chris Duesing
- [DGN]: Ludicrous speed. Michael Chui
- [DGN]: Ludicrous speed. Yaka St.Aise
- [DGN]: Ludicrous speed. Michael Chui
- [DGN]: Ludicrous speed. Yaka St.Aise
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Xyrrus
- Ghost Mode Pat Ditterline
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and standard deviation) Crosbie Fitch
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and sta ndard deviation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and standard deviation) John Buehler
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and sta ndard deviation) Katie Lukas
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and sta ndard deviation) Paul Schwanz
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and sta ndard deviation) Amanda Walker
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and standard deviation) Crosbie Fitch
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and sta ndard deviation) Matt Mihaly
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- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and standard deviation) Torgny Bjers
- Player malleable worlds (was expected value and standard deviation) Chanur Silvarian
- Player malleable worlds (was expected value and standard deviation) Corpheous Andrakin
- Player malleable worlds (was expected value and sta ndard deviation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and sta ndard deviation) Sean Kelly
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value andstandard deviation) Richard
- ghost mode Tess Lowe
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- Seamlessly Distributed Online Environments Draymoor {Philip Loguinov}
- Seamlessly Distributed Online Environments Bo Zimmerman
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- Seamlessly Distributed Online Environments Crosbie Fitch
- Seamlessly Distributed Online Environments J C Lawrence
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- Seamlessly Distributed Online Environments J C Lawrence
- Seamlessly Distributed Online Environments Crosbie Fitch
- Seamlessly Distributed Online Environments J C Lawrence
- Seamlessly Distributed Online Environments J C Lawrence
- Seamlessly Distributed Online Environments Paolo Piselli
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- Seamlessly Distributed Online Environments ceo
- Seamlessly Distributed Online Environments Crosbie Fitch
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- Rewarding Beta Testers (There's Pricing Deal) Vladimir Cole
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- variable difficulty levels (was: ghost mode) Corey Crawford
- variable difficulty levels (was: ghost mode) David Snyder
- variable difficulty levels (was: ghost mode) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- variable difficulty levels (was: ghost mode) Michael Tresca
- ghost mode Amanda Walker
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value andstandard deviation) Ren Reynolds
- R: BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ghilardi Filippo
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Chanur Silvarian
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Joshua Uyehara
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Lars Duening
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Rayzam
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Brian Hook
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? J C Lawrence
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Matt Mihaly
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- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Matt Mihaly
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- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Lee Sheldon
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- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Kwon J. Ekstrom
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Ben Chambers
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Russ Whiteman
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Ben Chambers
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- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Derek Licciardi
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Chanur Silvarian
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Mike Shaver
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Sheela Caur'Lir
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Amanda Walker
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Chanur Silvarian
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- play styles and difficulty settings ceo
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- Meta-games (not META list ;)) ceo
- [DGN]: Ludicrous speed. Yaka St.Aise
- variable difficulty levels Matt Mihaly
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Amanda Walker
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Freeman, Jeff
- Terra Nova, virtual world blog Castronova, Edward
- R: Rewarding Beta Testers (There's Pricing Deal) Ghilardi Filippo
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- [list] DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Scion Altera
- [list] DGN: Why give the players all thenumbers? Rayzam
- [list] DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Marian Griffith
- [list] DGN: Why give the players all thenumbers? John Buehler
- ghost mode ceo
- Class hierarchies for objects Brian Hook
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- A Theory of Fun Paul Schwanz
- The State of Play: On the Second Life Tax Revolt J C Lawrence
- The State of Play: On the Second Life Tax Revolt F. Randall Farmer
- Hidden Character Attribs Spot
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- A world without charity Eamonn O'Brien
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- A world without charity ceo@grexengine.com
- A world without charity Samurai Cat @ Catacombs
- A world without charity Crosbie Fitch
- A world without charity Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A world without charity Jeff Crane
- A world without charity eric
- A world without charity David Cooksey
- A world without charity Eli Stevens
- A world without charity Michael Tresca
- A world without charity Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A world without charity (was Discussion of MUD system design, development, and implementation) Chanur Silvarian
- In Norrath, Tattoine and Rubi-ka, Just What Are Your Legal Rights? Vladimir Cole
- C# as MUD Language, Linux as platform =?koi8-r?Q?=22?=Andrew Batyuck=?koi8-r?Q?=22=20?=< javaman@mail.ru>
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 4, Issue 30 Chanur Silvarian
- The Automated Online Role-Player Michael Tresca