September 2003
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Jim Purbrick
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks J C Lawrence
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Bruce Mitchener
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Jim Purbrick
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Bruce Mitchener
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks J C Lawrence
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Roy Riggs
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Jim Purbrick
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Sean Kelly
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Mike Shaver
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Eamonn O'Brien
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks ceo
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks ceo
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Lazarus
- [TECH] Server Bottlenecks Jeff Thompson
- [Tech] Garbage collection Brian Hook
- [Tech] Garbage collection Lars Duening
- [Tech] Garbage collection Bruce Mitchener
- [Tech] Garbage collection Jay Carlson
- TECH: Question about Bartle's new book Christer Enfors
- TECH: Question about Bartle's new book Richard A. Bartle
- Generating Cities John Arras
- Load Testing a MUD sszretter@hotmail.com
- Load Testing a MUD Ren Reynolds
- Load Testing a MUD Ben Greear
- Load Testing a MUD Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Load Testing a MUD Matthew D. Fuller
- Load Testing a MUD Marc Bowden
- Load Testing a MUD Lars Duening
- Load Testing a MUD Marc Bowden
- [DGN] Writing... a mud... erich-herz@uiowa.edu
- [DGN] Writing... a mud... Amanda Walker
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Yaka St.Aise
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Matt Mihaly
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Yaka St.Aise
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Michael Chui
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Amanda Walker
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Matthew Dobervich
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Justin Randall
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Yaka St.Aise
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Chris Duesing
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Crosbie Fitch
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Yaka St.Aise
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. John Buehler
- [DGN]: Ludicrous scheme. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Corpheous Andrakin
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Scott Jennings
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matthew Dobervich
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Daniel Anderson
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Mike Shaver
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Daniel Stahl
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Tamzen Cannoy
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Mike Shaver
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? ceo
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Nathan Yospe
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Linder Support Team
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Marian Griffith
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Michael Chui
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Paul Schwanz
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? J C Lawrence
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Amanda Walker
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Jeff Cole
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Jeff Cole
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Amanda Walker
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Marian Griffith
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Jeff Cole
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Michael Chui
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Marian Griffith
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Jeff Cole
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? ceo
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? ceo
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Scott Jennings
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Daniel Anderson
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Scott Jennings
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? ren@aldermangroup.com
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Dave Rickey
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Baar - Lord of the Seven Suns
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Michael Chui
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ryan S. Dancey
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? John Buehler
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Dave Rickey
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Amanda Walker
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Amanda Walker
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Amanda Walker
On Monday, October 6, 2003, at 06:11 PM, Ren Reynolds wrote:
> I think we agree that many (if not all) of these issues are ones
> of contract law. Where I think we disagree is on the arguments
> about why property does or does not come into it.
Could possibly be. I am, generally speaking, opposing arguments
that players have property interests in virtual items or avatars
that could be upheld in a court of law. I contend that virtual
items and avatars, insofar as they have existence and value at all,
do so in a way that is much more contingent on another entity's
property rights than in the references you have cited, and that this
degree of contingency makes it impossible (in current examples) to
separate out anything more than an authorization granted by
contract.
I am explicitly not making arguments on the basis of intellectual
property law. I am, rather, arguing that a game subscription is
more like a concert ticket or subscription than it is like owning or
leasing a piece of physical equipment or property. Similarly, I
contend that ebaying game characters is analogous to scalping
tickets, not to buying and selling property.
> I don't understand the relevance to the law and test cases I'm
> referencing here. Dependence in the sense that a company owns
> intellectual property rights in something and in the cases that I
> have referenced actually own the objects its pretty much a
> requirement for this area of law to get off the ground.
I'm not talking about intellectual property rights, I am talking
about actual (tangible) property rights.
> In the case of a game a games company owns the copyright to a
> piece of software and then tries to use this to tell individual
> what they can and can't do, can and can't sell.
Not so (or more accurately, this isn't the issue at hand). I
actually have no problem with people doing whatever they want with
the game software on their computer. hacking, reverse engineering,
emulating, parodying, whatever. But that's not what people are
selling in ebay. People are selling assets or authorizations that
reside on someone else's (namely, the game company's) computer, and
simply are not theirs to sell.
If my next door neighbor gives me a key so that I can water his
plants, it's still trespassing if I give that key to someone else
and they do something on my neighbor's property without his
permission. Authorization is not transitive, in other words.
>>> The fact that the existence of my flat is utterly dependent on
>>> the physical reality of other things such as the floors below,
>>> and is only really mine through some limited time to use does
>>> not prevent me from selling the lease.
>> On the other hand (at least in the US), your ability to sell your
>> lease or sublease your flat *does* depend on the terms of your
>> lease with the property owner
> Hold on, this is a different argument. You were arguing that there
> cannot be property right in virtual items in virtue of their
> dependence on a games company's servers. This argument is about
> contract, it's got nothing to do with that.
Correct: I was merely pointing out that even if the analogy to a
lease does hold, your conclusion still doesn't follow. Holding a
lease on your flat does not necessarily give you the right to sell
that lease.
> Do you now agree that the physical dependence argument does not
> hold ?
No, I do not agree. You can certainly sell your client software for
the game (this is an aspect of shrink wrap EULAs that I think is
quite unenforceable). You can print out the stats on your character
or item and sell that description. But you can't resell your
authorization to access and manipulate the game company's
information, stored on their property, even if that authorization
has value. The virtual items or characters are not your property,
any more than a seat at a Rolling Stones concert is your property
because you've bought a ticket.
And unlike physical objects, they have no value or use that does not
require the active cooperation of the game company. This is where
your film projector analogy falls down--the contingency of a virtual
item is not a matter of policy, it's a matter of who actually
controls the information representing the "item".
> So are you stating that a lease is not a property right under US
> law ?
According to my understanding of US law, it is not--it is a usage
right, governed by the terms of the lease, not by laws concerning
property. There may be local, state, or federal regulations which
constrain the terms under which leases can be offered depending on
the type of use, but this constrains usage rights, not property
rights. This is the difference between leasing something and
financing it, even if you pay the same amount for essentially the
same usage rights: in a lease, you have no property interest--all
you have is a right to use. With a lien, you hold a property
interest, but someone else may be able to affect that property
interest if you default on your contract.
Going back to the "lease on a flat" example. Let's say you lease a
flat in a part of town that becomes terribly fashionable during the
term of your lease, meaning that the flat becomes much more
valuable. You have no claim on that increase in value, you can't
resell your lease at a higher price, and you must still surrender
your access to the property under whatever terms are specified in
your lease.
Now, I am not a lawyer, I'm a software engineer, so I may be greatly
misunderstanding your point here.
> So again, are you now agreeing with me on the physical dependence
> argument i.e. that a putative item of property can depend for its
> existence on something other than the natural world (with no human
> intervention) and still be property ?
Generally speaking, I don't think that "items" which have no
physical existence are "items" at all. I don't think that most
intellectual property claims are valid, since I don't think that
intellectual property is property at all. I think that intellectual
property is a legal fiction designed as an incentive to encourage
people to publish creative works, and that is in no way applicable
to the question at hand.
> As to your second point. Game companies do not create many of the
> avatars and items we are talking about. This is back to an old
> argument. When I buy some game software, there is no avatar in
> the box, I create it through my actions, I give it a name a choose
> its type etc.
By that argument, there's no game world in the box either. I do
agree on both counts :-). I don't agree that the avatar you create
is your property, even if it is in some sense an artistic work of
which you are the author.
> Right, now were talking about value. And I don't get your point at
> all. Back to the lease example, the value of my flat is, in your
> word 'contingent' upon lots of things such as the type of building
> it is in, the area, the view.
None of that is the sense of "contingent" that I meant. Perhaps
"subsidiary" would be a better term. The value of your flat doesn't
accrue to you at all, except the value of the usage right granted by
your lease. The property itself isn't yours to sell, nor is your
contract with the owner.
> What much of this boils down to is whether the contractual clause
> of non-transferability of items and avatars (for money) is
> enforceable in law and in practice.
Agreed. Scalping of concert tickets does happen, regardless of
legality (much to the benefit of concierges at high-class hotels
everywhere). That said, if a scalped ticket is not accepted at the
concert (the name on the ticket doesn't match a person's ID, for
example), that is the issuers prerogative. Similarly, if something
happens to the concert (bad weather, sick performer, etc.), the
venue doesn't owe anyone more than the ticket price, regardless of
the value of that ticket on ebay the day before.
Remember where this conversation started: players suing game
companies over the "value" of lost items. My position is that there
is no loss where there was no property to begin with. This is quite
separate from the *market* value of such items, which can be
significant.
Perhaps we are in violent agreement :-), not counting for the moment
my general feeling that intellectual property is a social incentive,
not property. That's a rant for a different mailing list, I suspect
;-).
Amanda Walker - BIZ: Who owns my sword? Marian Griffith
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Amanda Walker
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Chris Mancil
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Zach Collins {Siege}
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ren Reynolds
- BIZ: Who owns my sword? Tamzen Cannoy
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Daniel Anderson
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Koster, Raph
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Scott Jennings
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Martin Bassie
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Chris Holko
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? burra@alum.rpi.edu
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Scott Jennings
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Daniel Anderson
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Matt Mihaly
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Threshold RPG
- Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever? Jason Smith
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 4, Issue 5 Jessica Mulligan
- [Tech] Functional languages Brian Hook
- [Tech] Functional languages ceo
- [Tech] Functional languages Brian Hook
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- SW:G Matt Mihaly
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- Grief teaching? (Was: Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever?) ghovs
- Grief teaching? (Was: Why doesn't Lineage count as the most popular MMOG ever?) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- R: MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 4, Issue 5 Ghilardi Filippo
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- Ghostmode (was: SW:G) Marian Griffith
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 4, Issue 5 Crosbie Fitch
- BIZ: Who holds your cahonas in their hand? (runs your infrastructure...; ) ceo
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Tess Lowe
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- ghost mode (was SW:G) Eli Stevens
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- [DGN]: Ludicrous speed. Chris Duesing
- [DGN]: Ludicrous speed. Michael Chui
- [DGN]: Ludicrous speed. Yaka St.Aise
- [DGN]: Ludicrous speed. Michael Chui
- [DGN]: Ludicrous speed. Yaka St.Aise
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Xyrrus
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- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and standard deviation) Crosbie Fitch
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and sta ndard deviation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and standard deviation) John Buehler
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and sta ndard deviation) Katie Lukas
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and sta ndard deviation) Paul Schwanz
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and sta ndard deviation) Amanda Walker
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and standard deviation) Crosbie Fitch
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and sta ndard deviation) Matt Mihaly
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and standard deviation) Kerry Fraser-Robinson
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and sta ndard deviation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and standard deviation) Torgny Bjers
- Player malleable worlds (was expected value and standard deviation) Chanur Silvarian
- Player malleable worlds (was expected value and standard deviation) Corpheous Andrakin
- Player malleable worlds (was expected value and sta ndard deviation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value and sta ndard deviation) Sean Kelly
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value andstandard deviation) Richard
- ghost mode Tess Lowe
- ghost mode Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
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- ghost mode Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- ghost mode Amanda Walker
- ghost mode Vincent Archer
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- ghost mode Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
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- Seamlessly Distributed Online Environments Draymoor {Philip Loguinov}
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- Seamlessly Distributed Online Environments Frank Crowell
- Seamlessly Distributed Online Environments Crosbie Fitch
- Seamlessly Distributed Online Environments J C Lawrence
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- Seamlessly Distributed Online Environments J C Lawrence
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- Rewarding Beta Testers (There's Pricing Deal) Vladimir Cole
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- Rewarding Beta Testers (There's Pricing Deal) Walton, Gordon
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- variable difficulty levels (was: ghost mode) Corey Crawford
- variable difficulty levels (was: ghost mode) David Snyder
- variable difficulty levels (was: ghost mode) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- variable difficulty levels (was: ghost mode) Michael Tresca
- ghost mode Amanda Walker
- Player malleable worlds (was Expected value andstandard deviation) Ren Reynolds
- R: BIZ: Who owns my sword? Ghilardi Filippo
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Chanur Silvarian
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Joshua Uyehara
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Lars Duening
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Rayzam
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Brian Hook
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? J C Lawrence
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Matt Mihaly
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Zach Collins {Siege}
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Matt Mihaly
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Matt Mihaly
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Sheela Caur'Lir
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Lee Sheldon
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? David Cooksey
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Lee Sheldon
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Rayzam
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Kwon J. Ekstrom
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Ben Chambers
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Russ Whiteman
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Ben Chambers
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Russ Whiteman
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Amanda Walker
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Derek Licciardi
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Chanur Silvarian
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Mike Shaver
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Sheela Caur'Lir
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Amanda Walker
- DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Chanur Silvarian
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- play styles and difficulty settings ceo
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- Meta-games (not META list ;)) Michael Sellers
- Meta-games (not META list ;)) ceo@grexengine.com
- Meta-games (not META list ;)) ceo
- [DGN]: Ludicrous speed. Yaka St.Aise
- variable difficulty levels Matt Mihaly
- ghost mode (was SW:G) Amanda Walker
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- Terra Nova, virtual world blog Castronova, Edward
- R: Rewarding Beta Testers (There's Pricing Deal) Ghilardi Filippo
- ghost mode Amanda Walker
- [list] DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Scion Altera
- [list] DGN: Why give the players all thenumbers? Rayzam
- [list] DGN: Why give the players all the numbers? Marian Griffith
- [list] DGN: Why give the players all thenumbers? John Buehler
- ghost mode ceo
- Class hierarchies for objects Brian Hook
- Class hierarchies for objects Bo Zimmerman
- A Theory of Fun Paul Schwanz
- The State of Play: On the Second Life Tax Revolt J C Lawrence
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- A world without charity Eamonn O'Brien
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- A world without charity Samurai Cat @ Catacombs
- A world without charity Crosbie Fitch
- A world without charity Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A world without charity Jeff Crane
- A world without charity eric
- A world without charity David Cooksey
- A world without charity Eli Stevens
- A world without charity Michael Tresca
- A world without charity Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A world without charity (was Discussion of MUD system design, development, and implementation) Chanur Silvarian
- In Norrath, Tattoine and Rubi-ka, Just What Are Your Legal Rights? Vladimir Cole
- C# as MUD Language, Linux as platform =?koi8-r?Q?=22?=Andrew Batyuck=?koi8-r?Q?=22=20?=< javaman@mail.ru>
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 4, Issue 30 Chanur Silvarian
- The Automated Online Role-Player Michael Tresca