July 2003
- Hackers Put 'Bane' in Shadowbane vladimir cole
- Display Cheats [Was MMO Launch issues...] Phillip Lenhardt
- Display Cheats [Was MMO Launch issues...] Owen Matt
- Display Cheats [Was MMO Launch issues...] Thomas Tomiczek
- Display Cheats [Was MMO Launch issues...] ceo
- Display Cheats [Was MMO Launch issues...] Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Display Cheats [Was MMO Launch issues...] Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Corba + pvm for servers? + UML + case tools Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Material state transformations Yuri Bazhukov
- Material state transformations Chris "Diamonds" Stewart
- Material state transformations Zach Collins {Siege}
- Material state transformations Yuri Bazhukov
- Material state transformations Nicolai Hansen
- Material state transformations Jason Murdick
- Material state transformations Travis Casey
- Material state transformations McDonald, Stephen
- Material state transformations Zach Collins {Siege}
- Material state transformations Richard A. Bartle
- Material state transformations Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Programming Languages. Matthew Estes
- Programming Languages. Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Programming Languages. Matthew Estes
- Programming Languages. J C Lawrence
- Programming Languages. Christopher Kohnert
- Programming Languages. J C Lawrence
- Programming Languages. Christopher Kohnert
- Programming Languages. Bruce Mitchener
- Programming Languages. Roy Trubshaw
- Programming Languages. Richard A. Bartle
- Programming Languages. Roy Trubshaw
- Programming Languages. Richard A. Bartle
- Programming Languages. Roy Trubshaw
- Programming Languages. Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Programming Languages. MIKE MacMartin
- Programming Languages. Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Programming Languages. Mike Shaver
- Programming Languages. MIKE MacMartin
- Programming Languages. Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Programming Languages. Bruce Mitchener
- Programming Languages. F. Randall Farmer
- Programming Languages. Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Programming Languages. J C Lawrence
- Geographical space paritioning ceo
- Geographical space paritioning Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- R: The Price of Being Male Ghilardi Filippo
- Autumn books ceo
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Michael Tresca
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Michael Tresca
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Marc Bowden
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Michael Tresca
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Paul Schwanz
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Jeff Cole
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Michael Tresca
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Jeff Cole
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Michael Tresca
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Crosbie Fitch
- Architecture (Cell Rebalancing) - working-sets ceo
- Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtual societes Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtual societes Michael Chui
- Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtual societes Ghovs
- Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtualsocietes David Kennerly
- Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtual societes Shu-yu Guo {Laptop}
- Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtualsocietes Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtualsocietes Amanda Walker
- Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtualsocietes Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? Daniel Anderson
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? David Kennerly
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get originalwiththe gameplay? Derek Licciardi
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Paul Schwanz
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Matt Mihaly
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Matt Mihaly
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Sasha Hart
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? kennerly@sfsu.edu
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Sasha Hart
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Daniel James
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Sasha Hart
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Daniel James
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Matt Mihaly
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? hart.s@comcast.net
[Matt Mihaly]
> [Daniel James]
>> [Sasha Hart]
>>> To someone who is deciding whether or not to risk their
>>> financial livelihood, do you think it is 'practical' to put all
>>> of your eggs into a basket which is only not decisively
>>> demonstrated inferior?
>> Well, yes, I do. I have (bet the farm, Moo) -- I believe that I
>> mentioned this in a recent de-lurking. For a small company it is
>> much more practical to avoid competing in the same expensive race
>> as everyone else. I don't know if we can be labelled as
>> 'financially conservative', although we sure are cheap.
> I think Dan has a point here. We've always tried to take a
> different tact towards game design specifically to be
> different. Difference can create a niche. It's not going to power
> a mass market game barring the rare huge hit, but it can work for
> smaller games. There's a huge audience out there and its got some
> pretty diverse tastes even if huge portions of it gravitate to the
> same type of game.
I don't know what I've been taken to say, but I will try to make it
super clear in this post.
Here is the setup.
1. In a high-risk situation in which the conditions of success are
poorly understood, there are few moves which are as heuristically
safe as something which worked before.
2. The argument "You never know, maybe it could work" is rational
and defensible. However, taking it as advice is at least mildly
braindead, and being skeptical short of any evidence is rational
and defensible given that things are as described in (1). I
believe that Dave Kennerly et al. (to once again unfairly pick out
Dave) claimed this and that the claim is credible.
Here is the point, in a nutshell:
3. If the genre is in a stagnant and incestuous state, developers
are nonetheless not responsible for failing to accept advice that
looks bad on a rational and defensible basis.
-- AND --
4. Neither are players especially responsible for not changing
this, minimally because of a lot of boring stuff I argued could
make players' tastes ineffective in stirring things up even if
that is precisely what they would like. The same rational,
defensible skepticism is a force which makes it more difficult for
the market to break out of local optima, and so the process can
get stuck even if everyone has the best intentions as long as
these conditions obtain, and assuming my reasoning is not out of
whack, etc.
I haven't myself been shy to argue that lower costs and lower risks
encourage exploration. I always thought this, and have always been
most interested in new and unusual ideas. It is a lot of why I keep
up on the list.
Here is my best shot at giving possible responses to what I was
arguing, which may also clarify further what I thought I was arguing
(provided nothing else has.)
1. The situation isn't high risk, success conditions are well
enough understood (at least enough to do some thing in
particular), or some other move is (whether intuitively or not)
just as safe as, or more safe than, cloning. All possible, but to
be argued in detail.
2. People should take heavy risks on the basis that it might
work. Of course, I will never argue that you are not entitled to
take any risks for yourself that you like, but if you are taking
such risks don't expect me to accept that as an argument for why
it is rational. I don't see this going anywhere, if someone claims
this then it will just be a parting of ways.
3. The genre discussed, whichever it is, isn't (too) clone-ridden,
so there's no problem. I've left this open, though I almost always
imply that more original stuff is going on in genres which get
less airtime (like text or free.) Dave has said that he thinks
there is plenty of originality, even if it's not in his view
really being 'voted for" (presumably, promoted to the league of EQ
DAOC or whatever list you think is being talked about, since I
have completely lost track of what kind of game, how many players,
how many servers, how many employees, how much buzz or name
recognition, how much money earned or spent is 'in' to talk
about.) I have taken up the topic and talked as if this were the
case, when the reality is specific to what kinds of games you are
talking about and probably only moderately stuck in the worst
cases, with lots of people happy to try their ideas even at
moderate risk. So I think the very original post asking when it
was going to get original is probably the most extreme position on
this, and most positions have been canvassed one way or another.
4. You think that players are responsible for stagnation for some
reason - either invoking some other kind of responsibility (e.g.,
it is really their fault since they shouldn't buy anything until
it is exactly what they want, no confusing satisficing; or,
implied, quit complaining about how unoriginal it all is) or
questioning that any interference is taking place/is relevant and
asserting that players have a clear choice of originality unbiased
by other variables like freedom from the various kinds of awful
problems that attend so many of these giant commercial projects,
even the very successful ones. - When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get originalwiththe gameplay? Ron Gabbard
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? hart.s@comcast.net
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out getoriginalwiththe gameplay? David Kennerly
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get originalwiththe gameplay? David Kennerly
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Michael Tresca
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? Martin Bassie
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? Daniel James
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get originalwith the gameplay? Daniel Anderson
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? J C Lawrence
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get origi nal with the gameplay? Christer Enfors XW {KS/EIN}
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? Snicker Furfoot
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get origi nal with the gameplay? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Jason Smith
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? Matt Mihaly
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get origi nal with the gameplay? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? J C Lawrence
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Christopher Allen
- R: Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtualsocietes Ghilardi Filippo
- Can "non-twitch" ranged-combat be fun in a MMORPG? Daniel Anderson
- Can "non-twitch" ranged-combat be fun in a MMORPG? Paolo Piselli
- Can "non-twitch" ranged-combat be fun in a MMORPG? Zach Collins {Siege}
- Can "non-twitch" ranged-combat be fun in a MMORPG? John Buehler
- A system for lives, death, old age, PK and perma death Eamonn O'Brien
- A system for lives, death, old age, PK and perma death Kyuss
- A system for lives, death, old age, PK and perma death Sasha Hart
- A system for lives, death, old age, PK and perma de ath Smith, David {Lynchburg}
- A system for lives, death, old age, PK and perma death David H. Loeser Jr.
- A system for lives, death, old age, PK and perma death Sasha Hart
- A system for lives, death, old age, PK and perma death Eamonn O'Brien
- RE:When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? Mike Mormando
- Online Gamers become enemies in the Real World Rayzam
- Online Gamers become enemies in the Real World J C Lawrence
- Online Gamers become enemies in the Real World Peter Tyson
- Online Gamers become enemies in the Real World Vincent Archer
- Online Gamers become enemies in the Real World Travis Nixon
- Online Gamers become enemies in the Real World Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Multithreading/accept? MIKE MacMartin
- Multithreading/accept? MIKE MacMartin
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with gameplay? Daniel Anderson
- Java servers and hacking ceo
- Understanding MMOGs ceo
- R: Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues invirtualsocietes Ghilardi Filippo
- A proposed new law of online world design buddy@riseup.net
- A proposed new law of online world design Marc Bowden
- Inside eGenesis: The Simulation of Power and Politics J C Lawrence
- Inside eGenesis: The Simulation of Power and Politics Chris Holko
- Inside eGenesis: The Simulation of Power and Politics Matt Mihaly
- Inside eGenesis: The Simulation of Power and Politics Andrew L. Tepper
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Castronova, Edward
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Tess Snider
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Castronova, Edward
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Richard A. Bartle
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Castronova, Edward
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Richard A. Bartle
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Marian Griffith
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Amanda Walker
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Ren Reynolds
- Alternate Business Models Ben Tolputt
- To Kill an Avatar kennerly@sfsu.edu
- To Kill an Avatar Ren Reynolds
- To Kill an Avatar David Kennerly
- To Kill an Avatar Ren Reynolds
- To Kill an Avatar Castronova, Edward
- To Kill an Avatar Daniel Anderson
- To Kill an Avatar Matt Mihaly
- To Kill an Avatar David Kennerly
- Natalia? Richard A. Bartle
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with gameplay? Daniel Anderson
- Thailand curfew Richard A. Bartle
- Counting Massive Multi Players David Kennerly
- Counting Massive Multi Players Koster, Raph
- Counting Massive Multi Players Castronova, Edward
- Counting Massive Multi Players Jeremy Gaffney
- Counting Massive Multi Players Madrona Tree
- Counting Massive Multi Players Jeremy Gaffney
- Counting Massive Multi Players Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Counting Massive Multi Players Lars Duening
- Counting Massive Multi Players Jeremy Gaffney
- Counting Massive Multi Players Jeremy Gaffney
- Counting Massive Multi Players David Kennerly
- Metrics for assessing game design [was: When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay?] ceo
- Looking for Paul Schwanz Richard A. Bartle
- Does anyone know the subscription numbers on SWG? Daniel Anderson
- Does anyone know the subscription numbers on SWG? Jason Murdick
- Does anyone know the subscription numbers on SWG? Chris "Diamonds" Stewart
- R: Counting Massive Multi Players Ghilardi Filippo
- Metrics for assessing game design hart.s@comcast.net
- Metrics for assessing game design Matt Mihaly
- Metrics for assessing game design Ron Gabbard
- Metrics for assessing game design Jeremy Gaffney
- Metrics for assessing game design Ron Gabbard
- Metrics for assessing game design ceo
- Metrics for assessing game design katie@stickydata.com
- Metrics for assessing game design Damion Schubert
- Metrics for assessing game design katie@stickydata.com
- Metrics for assessing game design ceo
- Metrics for assessing game design Paul Schwanz
- Wanted: Lead Designer and Lead Technical Artist Matt Mihaly
- BBG's a link to the past Corpheous Andrakin
- BBG's a link to the past Edward Glowacki
- BBG's a link to the past Paul Schwanz
- BBG's a link to the past ceo
- BBG's a link to the past DomQ
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Castronova, Edward
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Robert Lemos
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Richard A. Bartle
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Rob Lemos
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) katie@stickydata.com
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Amanda Walker
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Marian Griffith
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Boyle, Paul
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Paul Schwanz
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Paul Schwanz
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Brendan O'Brien
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Ron Gabbard
- Designing Virtual Worlds Richard A. Bartle
- Designing Virtual Worlds Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Designing Virtual Worlds Jacob Cord
- Designing Virtual Worlds Richard A. Bartle
- R: Counting Massive Multi Players Ghilardi Filippo
- Thinking outside of the room . . . ur . . . box Nolan J. Darilek
- Thinking outside of the room . . . ur . . . box MIKE MacMartin
- Thinking outside of the room . . . ur . . . box Zach Collins {Siege}
- Thinking outside of the room . . . ur . . . box Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Thinking outside of the room . . . ur . . . box T. Alexander Popiel
- Crunch time Yannick Jean
- Crunch time J C Lawrence
- Crunch time Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Crunch time ceo
- Crunch time Derek Licciardi
- Crunch time Amanda Walker
- Crunch time Ben Tolputt
- Crunch time ceo
- Crunch time Amanda Walker
- Crunch time Derek Licciardi
- Crunch time Damion Schubert
- Crunch time Derek Licciardi
- Crunch time Matt Mihaly
- Crunch time Miroslav Silovic
- Crunch time Sean Kelly
- Crunch time Travis Nixon
- Crunch time Lars Duening
- Crunch time Scott Jennings
- Crunch time Matt Mihaly
- Crunch time Hartsman, Scott
- Crunch time Amanda Walker
- Crunch time Paul Schwanz
- Crunch time Jason Salem
- Crunch time Amanda Walker
- Crunch time katie@stickydata.com
- Crunch time John Buehler
- Crunch time Tamzen Cannoy
- Crunch time Mark Terrano {XBOX}
- Crunch time Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Crunch time Amanda Walker
- Crunch time Damion Schubert
- Crunch time Sean Kelly
- Crunch time Mark Terrano {XBOX}
- Crunch time Eamonn O'Brien
- Crunch time Alex Chacha
- Identifying Players (was Counting Massive Multi Players) Crosbie Fitch