July 2003
- Hackers Put 'Bane' in Shadowbane vladimir cole
- Display Cheats [Was MMO Launch issues...] Phillip Lenhardt
- Display Cheats [Was MMO Launch issues...] Owen Matt
- Display Cheats [Was MMO Launch issues...] Thomas Tomiczek
- Display Cheats [Was MMO Launch issues...] ceo
- Display Cheats [Was MMO Launch issues...] Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Display Cheats [Was MMO Launch issues...] Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Corba + pvm for servers? + UML + case tools Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Material state transformations Yuri Bazhukov
- Material state transformations Chris "Diamonds" Stewart
- Material state transformations Zach Collins {Siege}
- Material state transformations Yuri Bazhukov
- Material state transformations Nicolai Hansen
- Material state transformations Jason Murdick
- Material state transformations Travis Casey
- Material state transformations McDonald, Stephen
- Material state transformations Zach Collins {Siege}
- Material state transformations Richard A. Bartle
- Material state transformations Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Programming Languages. Matthew Estes
- Programming Languages. Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Programming Languages. Matthew Estes
- Programming Languages. J C Lawrence
- Programming Languages. Christopher Kohnert
- Programming Languages. J C Lawrence
- Programming Languages. Christopher Kohnert
- Programming Languages. Bruce Mitchener
- Programming Languages. Roy Trubshaw
- Programming Languages. Richard A. Bartle
- Programming Languages. Roy Trubshaw
- Programming Languages. Richard A. Bartle
- Programming Languages. Roy Trubshaw
- Programming Languages. Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Programming Languages. MIKE MacMartin
- Programming Languages. Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Programming Languages. Mike Shaver
- Programming Languages. MIKE MacMartin
- Programming Languages. Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Programming Languages. Bruce Mitchener
- Programming Languages. F. Randall Farmer
- Programming Languages. Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Programming Languages. J C Lawrence
- Geographical space paritioning ceo
- Geographical space paritioning Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- R: The Price of Being Male Ghilardi Filippo
- Autumn books ceo
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Michael Tresca
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Michael Tresca
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Marc Bowden
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Michael Tresca
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Paul Schwanz
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Jeff Cole
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Michael Tresca
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Jeff Cole
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Michael Tresca
- [NEC] 2.8: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (fwd) Crosbie Fitch
- Architecture (Cell Rebalancing) - working-sets ceo
- Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtual societes Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtual societes Michael Chui
- Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtual societes Ghovs
- Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtualsocietes David Kennerly
- Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtual societes Shu-yu Guo {Laptop}
- Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtualsocietes Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtualsocietes Amanda Walker
- Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtualsocietes Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? Daniel Anderson
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? David Kennerly
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get originalwiththe gameplay? Derek Licciardi
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Paul Schwanz
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Matt Mihaly
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Matt Mihaly
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Sasha Hart
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? kennerly@sfsu.edu
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Sasha Hart
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Daniel James
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get originalwiththe gameplay? David Kennerly
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Michael Tresca
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? Martin Bassie
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? Daniel James
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get originalwith the gameplay? Daniel Anderson
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? J C Lawrence
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get origi nal with the gameplay? Christer Enfors XW {KS/EIN}
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? Snicker Furfoot
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get origi nal with the gameplay? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Jason Smith
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? Matt Mihaly
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get origi nal with the gameplay? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? J C Lawrence
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original withthe gameplay? Christopher Allen
- R: Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues in virtualsocietes Ghilardi Filippo
- Can "non-twitch" ranged-combat be fun in a MMORPG? Daniel Anderson
- Can "non-twitch" ranged-combat be fun in a MMORPG? Paolo Piselli
- Can "non-twitch" ranged-combat be fun in a MMORPG? Zach Collins {Siege}
- Can "non-twitch" ranged-combat be fun in a MMORPG? John Buehler
- A system for lives, death, old age, PK and perma death Eamonn O'Brien
- A system for lives, death, old age, PK and perma death Kyuss
- A system for lives, death, old age, PK and perma death Sasha Hart
- A system for lives, death, old age, PK and perma de ath Smith, David {Lynchburg}
- A system for lives, death, old age, PK and perma death David H. Loeser Jr.
- A system for lives, death, old age, PK and perma death Sasha Hart
- A system for lives, death, old age, PK and perma death Eamonn O'Brien
- RE:When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay? Mike Mormando
- Online Gamers become enemies in the Real World Rayzam
- Online Gamers become enemies in the Real World J C Lawrence
- Online Gamers become enemies in the Real World Peter Tyson
- Online Gamers become enemies in the Real World Vincent Archer
- Online Gamers become enemies in the Real World Travis Nixon
- Online Gamers become enemies in the Real World Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Multithreading/accept? MIKE MacMartin
- Multithreading/accept? MIKE MacMartin
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with gameplay? Daniel Anderson
- Java servers and hacking ceo
- Understanding MMOGs ceo
- R: Internationalisation: The effect of Tongues invirtualsocietes Ghilardi Filippo
- A proposed new law of online world design buddy@riseup.net
- A proposed new law of online world design Marc Bowden
- Inside eGenesis: The Simulation of Power and Politics J C Lawrence
- Inside eGenesis: The Simulation of Power and Politics Chris Holko
- Inside eGenesis: The Simulation of Power and Politics Matt Mihaly
- Inside eGenesis: The Simulation of Power and Politics Andrew L. Tepper
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Castronova, Edward
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Tess Snider
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Castronova, Edward
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Richard A. Bartle
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Castronova, Edward
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Richard A. Bartle
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Marian Griffith
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Amanda Walker
- Academic rejection of male/female paper Ren Reynolds
- Alternate Business Models Ben Tolputt
- To Kill an Avatar kennerly@sfsu.edu
- To Kill an Avatar Ren Reynolds
- To Kill an Avatar David Kennerly
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:27:34 +0100 "Ren Reynolds" wrote:
> I think there is a fairly strong analogy between code and civil
> law. Lessig's point, as I understand it, is that code like civil
> law is a form of control i.e. a limit on the scope of free action.
I'm not familiar with Lessig or any study of law, except as was
mentioned in the article. I appreciate this additional information.
The article used Lessig, properly or improperly, to imply that
programmer-created specifications which define the states a machine
may have are analogously equatable to legislator-created
specifications which empower law-enforcement agents and judicial
agents. The computational machine has no level of human-persuasion
once the code is in execution, except that defined by the execution
such as user input. Let me clarify with an example. If a developer
programs a town to have no player-killing, he has not done the
analogy to a law-maker posting to the lawbooks that murder shall be
forbidden, even if that law-maker is the programmer or producer
himself. Regardless of the particulars, the developer's
implementation prevents the killing of a player, despite the most
irrational intentions of any other player. Whereas, the law-maker
has not altered the choices of the player at all. He has created
socially-sanctioned retaliations on the player for his activity.
That is a very big difference. Suppose in game A, PK is OFF,
completely and loophole-secure. Suppose in game B, PK is ON, but
prohibited by the game service providers. In game A, a player P
attempts to kill a player Q. He fails. The same player P in game
B, succeeds in killing a player Q. Any action to the extent of
enforcement may be taken against player P, but that does nothing to
alter the event of player Q's death. It is in matters such as this
that I have considered, designed, coded, and administrated upon many
times that leads me to conclude that computer code fails to resemble
legislation, policy, or other rules. Within rules, disobedience is
possible even though it is not permitted. Within definition of the
state machine (code), the disobedience is, assuming it is possible
to code, impossible.
The example could even be streamlined down to a single menu. There
could, for the sake of thought experiment, be a game consisting of a
single menu:
1) Attack Player Q.
2) Talk to Player Q.
3) Attack mob.
4) Sell loot.
The programmer may eliminate option "1) Attack Player Q." It simply
would not be an option. The player's universe of options shrank
from 4 options to 3 options. But when a policy maker, including the
programmer or the producer herself, declares "1) Attack Player Q."
will be made illegal under conditions R, the two systems are very
different, and have very different customer complaint ratios, costs,
player satisfaction results and most basically, different amounts of
player-killing. One has none. The other none or some. One by lack
of option. The other by player self-restraint from choosing option
"1) Attack Player Q."
This player-killing example is intended to show the principle
differences, so it sets aside the implementation problems of
programming protection from each form that can be construed as
player-killing. Certainly it is tough to fully exclude all forms of
player-killing. One could even use "friendly" effects, like healing
to kill another. GMs know this all too well. But supposing it
possible, and there are very good examples of it being done before.
I personally have witnessed the programming of almost completely
PK-free environments in the MMORPGs that I've administrated. I'm
also not discussing the relative merits of programming PK_ON or
PK_OFF, and how. It's a cool topic, but it's a separate topic and
there's already plenty of intelligent discussion in MUD-Dev's
archives to refer to.
> But this might be what you meant with the shop analogy as there
> are different shops that appeal do different people and ones that
> have different levels of service at different costs.
To clarify, Yes.
> However I think that the argument is extending further than
> this. If you have a shop then within the shop you cannot have just
> the laws that you want. You have to follow laws of contract, heath
> and safety etc etc. I think this type of argument is extending
> more into virtual worlds. One are, and one that I study, is the
> whole avatar value thing.
This is where the analogy of a "virtual world" crumbles. There are
few health and safety concerns to an MMORPG except those of the
hardware, software, and general consensus of communication. There is
no concern of maximum seating allowance, minimum number of
lavatories per patron, minimum number of fire exits, wheelchair
ramps, maximum decibels allowed, noise pollution, shirts and shoes
required, washing your hands after every trip to the lavatory,
operating heavy machinery while intoxicated, tying a piece knot on
your sword, unloading and removing the firing mechanism from a
firearm before entering the premise, etc., etc.
There could be, but only if a developer were to program that
feature. And, just as important, if someone were to enjoy the
product of her labor. That is, a player would have to enjoy this
realism. Or, in another product, it may be a simulation, but that's
not what the author or I would be talking about. Although, that's
where I would clearly agree that a virtual world analogy is
consistent. MMORPGs are, as a set, generally real world features
minus all that boring crap that we do in the real world only because
we'd disease or otherwise permanently impair our quality of life
from neglect of said precautions.
> copies of the text. Moreover if encryption is used, then (if you
> are in the US) under the DMCA it is a serious offence to try to
> crack the encryption even if you are trying to do something
> e.g. copy the text, that you have (or had - the wider concern
> being that more and more is being excluded from the commons
> through this type of process) rights to do. Here we have an
> example of code limiting a pre-existing freedom and civil law
> backing up that restraint, but the code is contingent, it did not
> have to exist, it did not have to exist in the form that it does
> etc, here code really does seem to be law.
I'm not sure I understand. The way it sounds to me is that the
copy-protection code is a computational machine (as all code may be
called) that is helping secure the original intellectual property
from intellectual theft. Somewhat analogous to a physical lock on a
physical door to protect from physical property theft. The lock is
an example of a mechanical device that limits pre-existing
freedom. The physical lock on the door does not seem to be law.
Does it?
I see the fine point that the copy-protection code itself is
actually protecting something that is legally free to copy, or was
legally free to copy until the copy-protection code was applied.
This procedure, again, though is not unlike a physical lock on
physical property. Even if the property is a rock that was freely
available until it was placed inside a locked container, then I'm
not sure in what manner that the lock is like the law. I enjoy the
exercise, but I have to include that I've never had to split hairs
this finely during the operation of an MMORPG. What benefit does a
developer gain from this adopting the hypothesis of code as law?
Once he proceeds down this path, how does he avoid the pitfalls and
folly I hinted at above? How would a programmer, who is already
invested in the generation of code, avoid an end that Woody Allen
joked about, which went something along the line of "Psychiatry and
legislation are the only two professions devoted entirely to the
generation of paperwork."
> I now think that there is enough evidence from the likes of E
> Castronova to support the idea that external economic value is a
> consequence of these structures. By virtue of this it seems that
> there are an emerging set of duties that MMORPG creator have in
> respect of this value.
I am curious about the specific duties that you propose. I
personally have always felt the highest level of duty to the items,
character, and all other aspects of the player experience. I would
satisfy or at least explain the overruling limitation that prevented
me from satisfying the highest standard of any my employer's
customers. I applied it to complaints of items as well as anything
else. In doing so, I often optimized my service by preventing via
the code the customer service complaint that might have arisen, such
as providing clearer warning dialogs, limiting player mobility to
certain dangerous locations under extremely dangerous circumstances.
> By virtue of this it seems that there are an emerging set of
> duties that MMORPG creator have in respect of this value.
> Now I'm not sure what these duties are, however I sure that they
> will apply irrespective of what the MMORPGs creators happen to
> think about it.
When you are sure what these duties are, developers are curious;
especially those of us who already have a good set of duties. As
evidenced by the several personal praises of our customers in
response to our execution of said duties.
David - To Kill an Avatar Ren Reynolds
- To Kill an Avatar David Kennerly
- To Kill an Avatar Castronova, Edward
- To Kill an Avatar Daniel Anderson
- To Kill an Avatar Matt Mihaly
- To Kill an Avatar David Kennerly
- Natalia? Richard A. Bartle
- When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with gameplay? Daniel Anderson
- Thailand curfew Richard A. Bartle
- Counting Massive Multi Players David Kennerly
- Counting Massive Multi Players Koster, Raph
- Counting Massive Multi Players Castronova, Edward
- Counting Massive Multi Players Jeremy Gaffney
- Counting Massive Multi Players Madrona Tree
- Counting Massive Multi Players Jeremy Gaffney
- Counting Massive Multi Players Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Counting Massive Multi Players Lars Duening
- Counting Massive Multi Players Jeremy Gaffney
- Counting Massive Multi Players Jeremy Gaffney
- Counting Massive Multi Players David Kennerly
- Metrics for assessing game design [was: When will new MMORPGs that are coming out get original with the gameplay?] ceo
- Looking for Paul Schwanz Richard A. Bartle
- Does anyone know the subscription numbers on SWG? Daniel Anderson
- Does anyone know the subscription numbers on SWG? Jason Murdick
- Does anyone know the subscription numbers on SWG? Chris "Diamonds" Stewart
- R: Counting Massive Multi Players Ghilardi Filippo
- Metrics for assessing game design hart.s@comcast.net
- Metrics for assessing game design Matt Mihaly
- Metrics for assessing game design Ron Gabbard
- Metrics for assessing game design Jeremy Gaffney
- Metrics for assessing game design Ron Gabbard
- Metrics for assessing game design ceo
- Metrics for assessing game design katie@stickydata.com
- Metrics for assessing game design Damion Schubert
- Metrics for assessing game design katie@stickydata.com
- Metrics for assessing game design ceo
- Metrics for assessing game design Paul Schwanz
- Wanted: Lead Designer and Lead Technical Artist Matt Mihaly
- BBG's a link to the past Corpheous Andrakin
- BBG's a link to the past Edward Glowacki
- BBG's a link to the past Paul Schwanz
- BBG's a link to the past ceo
- BBG's a link to the past DomQ
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Castronova, Edward
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Robert Lemos
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Richard A. Bartle
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Rob Lemos
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) katie@stickydata.com
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Amanda Walker
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Marian Griffith
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Boyle, Paul
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Paul Schwanz
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Paul Schwanz
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Brendan O'Brien
- Value of PvP avatars (was: To Kill an Avatar) Ron Gabbard
- Designing Virtual Worlds Richard A. Bartle
- Designing Virtual Worlds Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Designing Virtual Worlds Jacob Cord
- Designing Virtual Worlds Richard A. Bartle
- R: Counting Massive Multi Players Ghilardi Filippo
- Thinking outside of the room . . . ur . . . box Nolan J. Darilek
- Thinking outside of the room . . . ur . . . box MIKE MacMartin
- Thinking outside of the room . . . ur . . . box Zach Collins {Siege}
- Thinking outside of the room . . . ur . . . box Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Thinking outside of the room . . . ur . . . box T. Alexander Popiel
- Crunch time Yannick Jean
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- Identifying Players (was Counting Massive Multi Players) Crosbie Fitch