May 2003
- NetGames 2003: CFParticipation Sugih Jamin
- MUD codebases Chris Saik
- MUD codebases Ammon Lauritzen
- MUD codebases Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD codebases Linder Support
- MUD codebases J C Lawrence
- Flow of messages sanxion sanxion
- Flow of messages Ammon Lauritzen
- Flow of messages Ben Chambers
- Flow of messages Travis Casey
- Flow of messages Brian Lindahl
- Flow of messages Ben Chambers
- Flow of messages Brian Lindahl
- Flow of messages sanxion sanxion
- Flow of messages Brian Lindahl
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Jason Slaughter
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Matt Mihaly
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Ryan Arthur
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Crosbie Fitch
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. William
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Byron Ellacott
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Evan Cortens
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. J C Lawrence
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Amanda Walker
- Customization in games, as a design tool / gameplay element ceo
- Warrior Challenge on PBS Madrona Tree
- Warrior Challenge on PBS Edward Glowacki
- Warrior Challenge on PBS Travis Casey
- Warrior Challenge on PBS Michael Chui
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 Mats Lidstrom
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 J C Lawrence
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 J C Lawrence
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive Talanithus HTML
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive Michael Chui
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive David Kennerly
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive Michael Chui
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive Talanithus HTML
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive J C Lawrence
- relevance of paper RPGs (was D& D vs. MMORPG "complexity") Travis Casey
- WAP MUD GAME DEVELOP Richard Ruan
- WAP MUD GAME DEVELOP Edouard Kock
- D&D and MMORPGs Michael Tresca
- D&D and MMORPGs Sean Kelly
- D&D and MMORPGs shren
- D&D and MMORPGs Threshold RPG
- D&D and MMORPGs Taylor
- D&D and MMORPGs Chris Holko
- D&D and MMORPGs Daniel James
- D&D and MMORPGs Peter Tyson
- D&D and MMORPGs Jason Murdick
- D&D and MMORPGs Michael Tresca
- D&D and MMORPGs Michael Tresca
- Database vs. Disk Tom
- Database vs. Disk Sean Kelly
- Database vs. Disk Ben Garney
- Database vs. Disk Adam Dray
- Database vs. Disk Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Database vs. Disk Brian Lindahl
- Database vs. Disk Chris Holko
- Database vs. Disk Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Database vs. Disk Weston Fryatt
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Byron Ellacott
- Database vs. Disk Dave Rickey
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Bruce Mitchener
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Bruce Mitchener
- Database vs. Disk Jason Gauthier
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Nicolai Hansen
- Database vs. Disk Zach Collins {Siege}
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Zach Collins {Siege}
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Kwon Ekstrom
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk John A. Bertoglio
- Database vs. Disk corrine_123@hotmail.com
- Database vs. Disk Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Database vs. Disk Marc Bowden
- Database vs. Disk Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Database vs. Disk Sulka Haro
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Jason Slaughter
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Edward Glowacki
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. J C Lawrence
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Bruce Mitchener
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Edward Glowacki
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. J C Lawrence
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Bruce Mitchener
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Christopher Allen
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. ghfdh fcgdfgdfg
- ADMIN: Untoward unsubscriptions J C Lawrence
- Bringing out the barbaric in each of us David Kennerly
- Horizons Valerio Santinelli
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Talanithus HTML
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Brian Lindahl
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Michael Chui
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Marian Griffith
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Paul Schwanz
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution J C Lawrence
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Matt Mihaly
- Account retention (was: D& D vs. MMORPG "complexity") Byron Ellacott
- Object-Oriented Databases John A. Bertoglio
- Object-Oriented Databases Weston Fryatt
- Object-Oriented Databases Travis Nixon
- Object-Oriented Databases Bruce Mitchener
- Object-Oriented Databases John A. Bertoglio
- Object-Oriented Databases Jeff Bachtel
- Object-Oriented Databases Sean Kelly
- TECH: Application-level branch prediction? ceo
- DID vs. MORAG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- DID vs. MORAG "complexity" Dave Rickey
From: "Jeff Cole" <jeff.cole@mindspring.com>
> From: Dave Rickey
>> Issues related to the economy did not become priority "Oh my god
>> we have to fix this" problems. Although there was an ongoing
>> economic emphasis in development, with 2-3 developers working on
>> it steadily, it was all very low-key and rarely rose to the point
>> where management was even aware of it, never mind pushing for
>> decisions on it or making them directly. By the standards of
>> previous games, that is "non-broken".
> Exactly. Your definition of "broken" begs the question, and it
> says more about Mystic's priorities than whether the Camelot
> economy is broken.
People generally have enough money to meet their needs, but
generally want more than they have. People freely accept currency
in exchange for goods and services. A fairly complex collection of
armorers, weaponcrafters, and other tradesmen find a market for
their products. The system as a whole displays great inherent
stability and even absorbs the impact of duping bugs with little
effect. The system as a whole met its design goals. By any
reasonable standard I can think of, priorities or not, it qualifies
as "non-broken".
Now, I can think of a lot of ways in which it could do a better job
of creating interesting social interactions, but since economies
that *were* broken by the above standard were the norm before
Camelot, I consider it a job well done, and some valuable lessons
earned. Anyway, I find myself to be somewhat uncomfortable to be on
the defensive about it, since some of the criticisms are things I
agree with, but may have been unable to do anything about and might
be contractually obligated not to explain why. So I'm going to drop
the whole "broken/non-broken" discussion here.
>> I might buy this, if the predictive record of economists weren't
>> so poor. The old joke is that they have "predicted 9 of the last
>> 5 recessions". In spite of centuries of work, a continuing
>> effort in the public, private, and academic arenas, the "dismal
>> science" is going nowhere, and has been for a long time. I'm
>> going to make a bold statement: It is not only worthwhile for
>> economists to study online game economies, but there are Nobel
>> prizes waiting for the ones that figure them out.
> Certainly the limitations you describe (limited number of
> participants, lack of outside influences and ability to manipulate
> [artificially, mind you] supply and demand) are not likely to
> improve predictive accuracy.
I would disagree, obviously (since to a degree I was able to predict
economic behaviours in Camelot in spite of irrationality). Strictly
mathematical approaches cannot deal with irrationality, and since
irrationality is clearly part of real economies even though dogma
says it cannot be, the result has been a proliferation of
definitions of "value" in economics. "Rarity value", "aesthetic
value", "sentimental value", even "discouragement value" have been
postulated, all in an attempt to preserve the notion that economic
actors are rational. It reminds me of epicycles.
I think procedural modelling is much more promising, but the entire
subject is the focus of much debate in scientific circles right now.
However, I stand by the statement that the economies of MMO's can
display the same properties as "real" ones, but in ways and with a
level of observation that can give significant insight. It's
undeniable that at a minimum, many if not all of the same forces are
at work, and that observation is much more complete.
> That is not to say that studying MOM*/MUD economies is not
> valuable. Quite the contrary. Predictive accuracy may well be
> the philosopher's stone, but I think it is a poor measure of
> "getting somewhere." Doesn't your inherent-irrationality theory
> preclude predictive accuracy?
Yes and no. Or maybe. Even if individuals cannot be expected to be
rational, they can be irrational in predictable ways and/or
proportions. It could easily be that the system is like weather,
inherently chaotic and therefore impossible to predict with
accuracy, but only as a probability. But it would be good to *know*
that prediction was impossible, and why.
--Dave - DID vs. MORAG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- DID vs. MORAG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- Objects Ben Chambers
- Scripting languages Jason Murdick
- Scripting languages Brian Hook
- Scripting languages Jason Gauthier
- Scripting languages Sanvean
- Scripting languages Jason Murdick
- Scripting languages Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Scripting languages Ling Lo
- Scripting languages Jay Carlson
- Scripting languages Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Scripting languages Lars Duening
- Scripting languages Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Scripting languages Lars Duening
- Scripting languages Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Scripting languages Lars Duening
- Scripting languages justice@softhome.net
- Scripting languages MIKE MacMartin
- Scripting languages Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Scripting languages Bruce Mitchener
- Scripting languages Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Scripting languages Dr. Cat
- Scripting languages Jay Carlson
- Scripting languages David H. Loeser Jr.
- Scripting languages Shu-yu Guo
- Scripting languages Lars Duening
- Scripting languages David H. Loeser Jr.
- Scripting languages criscal@gmx.de
- Scripting languages eric
- Scripting languages Smith, David {Lynchburg}
- Scripting languages John Buehler
- Scripting languages Mike Shaver
- Scripting languages sanxion sanxion
- Scripting languages Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Scripting languages Mike Shaver
- Scripting languages sanxion sanxion
- Scripting languages Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- When marketroids attack! Tess Snider
- Moo mailing list issue _DESPARATE FOR HELP! Ms Leigh Canny
- Moo mailing list issue _DESPARATE FOR HELP! David Clifton
- When Player Communities Rebel / Fanbois Gone Rogue vladimir cole
- When Player Communities Rebel / Fanbois Gone Rogue Andrew Barratt {MIS}
- NWN player modules (was: D&D and MMORPGs) Lars Duening
- NWN player modules (was: D&D and MMORPGs) Jonathan Grant
- Simpsons player types Matt Mihaly
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Thomas Sullivan
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Sasha Hart
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Kristen Koster
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Marc Bowden
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Kristen Koster
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Thomas Sullivan
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Owen Matt
- Dealing with cloned NPCs John Buehler
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Owen Matt
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Thomas Sullivan
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Vincent Archer
- The Laws of the Virtual Worlds Tamzen Cannoy