May 2003
- NetGames 2003: CFParticipation Sugih Jamin
- MUD codebases Chris Saik
- MUD codebases Ammon Lauritzen
- MUD codebases Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD codebases Linder Support
- MUD codebases J C Lawrence
- Flow of messages sanxion sanxion
- Flow of messages Ammon Lauritzen
- Flow of messages Ben Chambers
- Flow of messages Travis Casey
- Flow of messages Brian Lindahl
- Flow of messages Ben Chambers
- Flow of messages Brian Lindahl
- Flow of messages sanxion sanxion
- Flow of messages Brian Lindahl
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Jason Slaughter
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Matt Mihaly
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Ryan Arthur
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Crosbie Fitch
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. William
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Byron Ellacott
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Evan Cortens
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. J C Lawrence
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Amanda Walker
- Customization in games, as a design tool / gameplay element ceo
- Warrior Challenge on PBS Madrona Tree
- Warrior Challenge on PBS Edward Glowacki
- Warrior Challenge on PBS Travis Casey
- Warrior Challenge on PBS Michael Chui
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 Mats Lidstrom
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 J C Lawrence
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 J C Lawrence
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive Talanithus HTML
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive Michael Chui
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive David Kennerly
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive Michael Chui
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive Talanithus HTML
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive J C Lawrence
- relevance of paper RPGs (was D& D vs. MMORPG "complexity") Travis Casey
- WAP MUD GAME DEVELOP Richard Ruan
- WAP MUD GAME DEVELOP Edouard Kock
- D&D and MMORPGs Michael Tresca
- D&D and MMORPGs Sean Kelly
- D&D and MMORPGs shren
- D&D and MMORPGs Threshold RPG
- D&D and MMORPGs Taylor
- D&D and MMORPGs Chris Holko
- D&D and MMORPGs Daniel James
- D&D and MMORPGs Peter Tyson
- D&D and MMORPGs Jason Murdick
- D&D and MMORPGs Michael Tresca
- D&D and MMORPGs Michael Tresca
- Database vs. Disk Tom
- Database vs. Disk Sean Kelly
- Database vs. Disk Ben Garney
- Database vs. Disk Adam Dray
- Database vs. Disk Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Database vs. Disk Brian Lindahl
- Database vs. Disk Chris Holko
- Database vs. Disk Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Database vs. Disk Weston Fryatt
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Byron Ellacott
- Database vs. Disk Dave Rickey
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Bruce Mitchener
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Bruce Mitchener
- Database vs. Disk Jason Gauthier
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Nicolai Hansen
- Database vs. Disk Zach Collins {Siege}
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Zach Collins {Siege}
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Kwon Ekstrom
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk John A. Bertoglio
- Database vs. Disk corrine_123@hotmail.com
- Database vs. Disk Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Database vs. Disk Marc Bowden
- Database vs. Disk Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Database vs. Disk Sulka Haro
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Jason Slaughter
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Edward Glowacki
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. J C Lawrence
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Bruce Mitchener
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Edward Glowacki
J C Lawrence wrote:
> While this is the common wisdom, its wearing thin. There are
> several useful levels above UDP's lack of guarantees, before
> reaching full TCP behaviour which are useful. For example a layer
> atop UDP which guarantees order of delivery while not guaranteeing
> delivery can be useful for delta/mark based update messages.
> Have a look at ENet.
But in a MUD scenario, with each packet as a command (per the
original post), you need guaranteed delivery as well. You can't
exactly have your "quaff healing potion" commands falling off the
face of the earth... I'll cede the point that there may be other
options between UDP and TCP that might be viable for this particular
application, but hold onto my suggestion of TCP for simplicity
(i.e. it's ubiquitous, and doesn't require additional libraries to
be installed or distributed with the client), since the original
poster was big on simplicity.
>> It doesn't really cost anything to hold on to some TCP
>> connections on the server side...
> It does when you are dealing with large numbers of connections (I
> start thinking hard as soon as I got into or past 1,000), and
> while the curve is not exponential, its certainly not flat. For a
> reasonable (slightly dated) discussion see Dan Kegel's C10K page
> as well as the archives of this list (there' been a good bit of
> discussion of the area here).
So I guess it ultimately depends on how many simultaneous clients
he's planning on having, and how soon he wants to move out of the
"simple" phase into the "somewhat more complex" phase. I can see
your point though.
>> One of the great features of a text MUD is its text interface,
>> i.e. the keyboard, which can be very efficient. When you start
>> switching to the mouse, you lose efficiency
>> (keyboard-to-mouse-and-back is an expensive operation
>> time-wise...).
> There's some common wisdom here regarding keyboard speed versus
> mouse which is simply false in lab tests. Read up on Tog:
> http://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html
I hadn't read that particular bit by Tog, but I have read some of
his other stuff.
I wasn't trying to argue that the mouse was inefficient, just that
depending on what you're doing, the keyboard *can* be extremely
efficient, and that switching between keyboard and mouse *will*
cause some delay. Whether or not that delay is required is another
story that depends on how well the whole user interface is designed.
In a traditional MUD, where commands are all done by keyboard and
the display is entirely serial, there really isn't much to do for
the interface design: organize and format the text for basic
readability and setup the commands to reduce the number of
keystrokes. So MUD interface efficiency is a fairly known quantity
(excepting GUI mud clients, ala zMUD, etc.). Once you start making
the jump from text to graphical, the issue gets a lot more difficult
and complicated very quickly. GUI design is *hard* to do *well*. I
would rate most software GUI's out there to be mediocre at best, and
even most commercial products don't get it quite right.
Somewhere in there I think I lost track of what I was arguing
about... =P Maybe it had something to do with being a text mud vs a
graphical mud, doing one right vs. doing both poorly, and to be
careful with how you ride the line down the middle...
-ED - Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. J C Lawrence
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Bruce Mitchener
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Christopher Allen
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. ghfdh fcgdfgdfg
- ADMIN: Untoward unsubscriptions J C Lawrence
- Bringing out the barbaric in each of us David Kennerly
- Horizons Valerio Santinelli
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Talanithus HTML
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Brian Lindahl
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Michael Chui
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Marian Griffith
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Paul Schwanz
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution J C Lawrence
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Matt Mihaly
- Account retention (was: D& D vs. MMORPG "complexity") Byron Ellacott
- Object-Oriented Databases John A. Bertoglio
- Object-Oriented Databases Weston Fryatt
- Object-Oriented Databases Travis Nixon
- Object-Oriented Databases Bruce Mitchener
- Object-Oriented Databases John A. Bertoglio
- Object-Oriented Databases Jeff Bachtel
- Object-Oriented Databases Sean Kelly
- TECH: Application-level branch prediction? ceo
- DID vs. MORAG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- DID vs. MORAG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- DID vs. MORAG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- Objects Ben Chambers
- Scripting languages Jason Murdick
- Scripting languages Brian Hook
- Scripting languages Jason Gauthier
- Scripting languages Sanvean
- Scripting languages Jason Murdick
- Scripting languages Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Scripting languages Ling Lo
- Scripting languages Jay Carlson
- Scripting languages Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Scripting languages Lars Duening
- Scripting languages Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Scripting languages Lars Duening
- Scripting languages Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Scripting languages Lars Duening
- Scripting languages justice@softhome.net
- Scripting languages MIKE MacMartin
- Scripting languages Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Scripting languages Bruce Mitchener
- Scripting languages Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Scripting languages Dr. Cat
- Scripting languages Jay Carlson
- Scripting languages David H. Loeser Jr.
- Scripting languages Shu-yu Guo
- Scripting languages Lars Duening
- Scripting languages David H. Loeser Jr.
- Scripting languages criscal@gmx.de
- Scripting languages eric
- Scripting languages Smith, David {Lynchburg}
- Scripting languages John Buehler
- Scripting languages Mike Shaver
- Scripting languages sanxion sanxion
- Scripting languages Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Scripting languages Mike Shaver
- Scripting languages sanxion sanxion
- Scripting languages Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- When marketroids attack! Tess Snider
- Moo mailing list issue _DESPARATE FOR HELP! Ms Leigh Canny
- Moo mailing list issue _DESPARATE FOR HELP! David Clifton
- When Player Communities Rebel / Fanbois Gone Rogue vladimir cole
- When Player Communities Rebel / Fanbois Gone Rogue Andrew Barratt {MIS}
- NWN player modules (was: D&D and MMORPGs) Lars Duening
- NWN player modules (was: D&D and MMORPGs) Jonathan Grant
- Simpsons player types Matt Mihaly
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Thomas Sullivan
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Sasha Hart
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Kristen Koster
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Marc Bowden
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Kristen Koster
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Thomas Sullivan
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Owen Matt
- Dealing with cloned NPCs John Buehler
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Owen Matt
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Thomas Sullivan
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Vincent Archer
- The Laws of the Virtual Worlds Tamzen Cannoy