May 2003
- NetGames 2003: CFParticipation Sugih Jamin
- MUD codebases Chris Saik
- MUD codebases Ammon Lauritzen
- MUD codebases Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD codebases Linder Support
- MUD codebases J C Lawrence
- Flow of messages sanxion sanxion
- Flow of messages Ammon Lauritzen
- Flow of messages Ben Chambers
- Flow of messages Travis Casey
- Flow of messages Brian Lindahl
- Flow of messages Ben Chambers
- Flow of messages Brian Lindahl
- Flow of messages sanxion sanxion
- Flow of messages Brian Lindahl
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Jason Slaughter
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Matt Mihaly
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Ryan Arthur
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Crosbie Fitch
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. William
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Byron Ellacott
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Evan Cortens
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. J C Lawrence
- UDP vs TCP for MUD/MMORPG project. Amanda Walker
- Customization in games, as a design tool / gameplay element ceo
- Warrior Challenge on PBS Madrona Tree
- Warrior Challenge on PBS Edward Glowacki
- Warrior Challenge on PBS Travis Casey
- Warrior Challenge on PBS Michael Chui
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 Marian Griffith
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 Mats Lidstrom
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 J C Lawrence
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 J C Lawrence
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive Talanithus HTML
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive Michael Chui
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive David Kennerly
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive Michael Chui
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive Talanithus HTML
- Storytelling in a PSW from a Player's Persepctive J C Lawrence
- relevance of paper RPGs (was D& D vs. MMORPG "complexity") Travis Casey
- WAP MUD GAME DEVELOP Richard Ruan
- WAP MUD GAME DEVELOP Edouard Kock
- D&D and MMORPGs Michael Tresca
- D&D and MMORPGs Sean Kelly
- D&D and MMORPGs shren
- D&D and MMORPGs Threshold RPG
- D&D and MMORPGs Taylor
- D&D and MMORPGs Chris Holko
- D&D and MMORPGs Daniel James
- D&D and MMORPGs Peter Tyson
- D&D and MMORPGs Jason Murdick
- D&D and MMORPGs Michael Tresca
- D&D and MMORPGs Michael Tresca
- Database vs. Disk Tom
- Database vs. Disk Sean Kelly
- Database vs. Disk Ben Garney
- Database vs. Disk Adam Dray
- Database vs. Disk Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Database vs. Disk Brian Lindahl
- Database vs. Disk Chris Holko
- Database vs. Disk Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Database vs. Disk Weston Fryatt
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Byron Ellacott
- Database vs. Disk Dave Rickey
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Bruce Mitchener
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Bruce Mitchener
- Database vs. Disk Jason Gauthier
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Nicolai Hansen
- Database vs. Disk Zach Collins {Siege}
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Zach Collins {Siege}
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Kwon Ekstrom
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk John A. Bertoglio
- Database vs. Disk corrine_123@hotmail.com
- Database vs. Disk Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Database vs. Disk J C Lawrence
- Database vs. Disk Peter "Pietro" Rossmann
- Database vs. Disk Marc Bowden
- Database vs. Disk Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Database vs. Disk Sulka Haro
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Jason Slaughter
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Edward Glowacki
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. J C Lawrence
On 21 May 2003 11:09:05 -0400
Edward Glowacki <glowack2@msu.edu> wrote:
> I don't buy this argument. UDP is an unreliable protocol, so you're
> never *guaranteed* that what you send will be received, or in what
> order. Something like "lite fuse, drop bomb, move east" might end up
> as "move east, like fuse, (drop bomb command lost in transit)". Boom.
> By the time you make sure commands arrive, and do so in order, you've
> re-implemented TCP and destroyed your simplicity.
While this is the common wisdom, its wearing thin. There are several
useful levels above UDP's lack of guarantees, before reaching full TCP
behaviour which are useful. For example a layer atop UDP which
guarantees order of delivery while not guaranteeing delivery can be
useful for delta/mark based update messages.
Have a look at ENet.
> It doesn't really cost anything to hold on to some TCP connections on
> the server side...
It does when you are dealing with large numbers of connections (I start
thinking hard as soon as I got into or past 1,000), and while the curve
is not exponential, its certainly not flat. For a reasonable (slightly
dated) discussion see Dan Kegel's C10K page as well as the archives of
this list (there' been a good bit of discussion of the area here).
> ... and (as you mentioned) it does make it a lot easier for people
> with firewalls to use TCP.
Actually the problem isn't with firewalls per se, its with NAT devices.
Specifically the problem is with establishing a connection between two
devices, both of which are behind NAT devices. TCP vs UDP doesn't
really change or affect this problem at all. The problem is that NAT
devices establish the port pair relationships by noticing packets
*outbound* through the device, and if both sides are behind NAT, both
sides can't create outbound connections...
> In order for this to work, an "action" will need to be some sort of
> function, which brings up the question of how to associate functions
> with game objects. Back to object-oriented...
Poking about the various Tiny-* derived server models (I'd start with
COOLMUD as previously stated) is probably a good idea. Minimally have a
look at one of the Tiny-* clan, MOO, and Cold.
> One of the great features of a text MUD is its text interface,
> i.e. the keyboard, which can be very efficient. When you start
> switching to the mouse, you lose efficiency
> (keyboard-to-mouse-and-back is an expensive operation time-wise...).
There's some common wisdom here regarding keyboard speed versus mouse
which is simply false in lab tests. Read up on Tog:
http://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html
> If you're looking for a large audience of content creators, then
> you'll want to build the content creation interface with as much
> polish as your game interface. For any interface, make sure you
> understand the goals your users are trying to reach and try to make
> the interface streamline the path to get there. The KISS philosophy
> you've been describing for the rest of your game should work
> especially well here.
Its also worth looking at those systems which have fostered the most
user content creation. Tiny-* clan servers with MOO being the most
notable, LP, and in the commercial world things like AlphaWorld and
SecondLife (which later seems more interesting than There).
--
J C Lawrence
---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas.
claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh?
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. - Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Bruce Mitchener
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Edward Glowacki
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. J C Lawrence
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Bruce Mitchener
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. J C Lawrence
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. Christopher Allen
- Thoughts on a simplified multiplayer game. ghfdh fcgdfgdfg
- ADMIN: Untoward unsubscriptions J C Lawrence
- Bringing out the barbaric in each of us David Kennerly
- Horizons Valerio Santinelli
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Talanithus HTML
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Brian Lindahl
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Michael Chui
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Marian Griffith
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Paul Schwanz
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution J C Lawrence
- RP, MMORPGs, and their Evolution Matt Mihaly
- Account retention (was: D& D vs. MMORPG "complexity") Byron Ellacott
- Object-Oriented Databases John A. Bertoglio
- Object-Oriented Databases Weston Fryatt
- Object-Oriented Databases Travis Nixon
- Object-Oriented Databases Bruce Mitchener
- Object-Oriented Databases John A. Bertoglio
- Object-Oriented Databases Jeff Bachtel
- Object-Oriented Databases Sean Kelly
- TECH: Application-level branch prediction? ceo
- DID vs. MORAG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- DID vs. MORAG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- DID vs. MORAG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- Objects Ben Chambers
- Scripting languages Jason Murdick
- Scripting languages Brian Hook
- Scripting languages Jason Gauthier
- Scripting languages Sanvean
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- Scripting languages Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
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- Scripting languages Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
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- Scripting languages Kwon J. Ekstrom
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- Scripting languages David H. Loeser Jr.
- Scripting languages Shu-yu Guo
- Scripting languages Lars Duening
- Scripting languages David H. Loeser Jr.
- Scripting languages criscal@gmx.de
- Scripting languages eric
- Scripting languages Smith, David {Lynchburg}
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- Scripting languages sanxion sanxion
- Scripting languages Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Scripting languages Mike Shaver
- Scripting languages sanxion sanxion
- Scripting languages Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- When marketroids attack! Tess Snider
- Moo mailing list issue _DESPARATE FOR HELP! Ms Leigh Canny
- Moo mailing list issue _DESPARATE FOR HELP! David Clifton
- When Player Communities Rebel / Fanbois Gone Rogue vladimir cole
- When Player Communities Rebel / Fanbois Gone Rogue Andrew Barratt {MIS}
- NWN player modules (was: D&D and MMORPGs) Lars Duening
- NWN player modules (was: D&D and MMORPGs) Jonathan Grant
- Simpsons player types Matt Mihaly
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Thomas Sullivan
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Sasha Hart
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Kristen Koster
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Marc Bowden
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Kristen Koster
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Thomas Sullivan
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Owen Matt
- Dealing with cloned NPCs John Buehler
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Owen Matt
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Thomas Sullivan
- Dealing with cloned NPCs Vincent Archer
- The Laws of the Virtual Worlds Tamzen Cannoy