April 2003
- Improper Assessment Brian Lindahl
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Chris Holko
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Louis
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Freeman, Jeff
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Bad Mojo
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" a t y mcguire
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Chris Holko
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Damion Schubert
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Boyle, Paul
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Damion Schubert
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Amanda Walker
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Sean Kelly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Amanda Walker
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel Anderson
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel Anderson
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ben Hoyt
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Canniff
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Zach Collins {Siege}
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
From: "Jeff Cole" <jeff.cole@mindspring.com>
> From: Dave Rickey
>> From: Jeff Cole
>>> From: Dave Rickey
>> Boundary conditions may be only unimportant "extremes" irrelevant
>> to general principles for an academic. But when you're building
>> systems from scratch that actually have to work, rather than
>> observing systems that already exist and will continue to
>> regardless of your conclusions, it is even more important to
>> account for the extremes than to explain the general case.
> I don't disagree that a design need consider the boundary
> conditions--both theoretical and practical. However, you were
> offering examples at the extreme in support of what I inferred to
> be your assertion of very general principles.
I am having trouble following your reasoning here. We're still
having a conceptual break over the "irrational" economic behaviour
of players, I'm claiming that the irrationality that economists
dismiss as "extreme" and discard from their theories, is actually
inherent to the system and will break systems that are not built to
account for them, and pointing to Camelot as an example of a system
that did *not* break. Economists have been able to dismiss it
because the real economy does not have to run according to their
theories, and factors outside of the scope of their theories
counteract it sufficiently to make their theories close enough for
the purposes of choosing what to observe and making general
short-term predictions. However, when you're building a system from
scratch, there *are* no factors outside of the scope of the system,
and if your theory doesn't account for the extreme cases, it's not
going to work for your general case very long, either.
You seem to be defending the traditional view of irrationality being
only the result of inadequate information, so any irrationality in
Camelot *must* be the result of inadequate information, and
therefore "built in" (since we controlled most of the information
availability). This is an easy position to defend and a difficult
one to falsify, since information for all economic actors at all
times can never be truly complete in practice. Am I correct (both
in my assessment of your argument, and of the essential core
strength of it)?
My response is that the very act of assuming only "rational"
participants in economic activities is an extreme case, since many
very visible economic transactions in both virtual and real systems
show irrationality, and in fact people are clearly not rational in
many of their decisions (economic or not). The assumption has been
useful in allowing the theories to be reduced to manageable
equations, but it should not be surprising if it turns out to be a
source of systematic error.
If, in fact, there is such a systematic error, the MMOG's would seem
to be a good environment for finding it. The number of participants
is limited, the interaction with outside influences is comparatively
minor, the ability to manipulate the core scarcities and inherent
demands effectively limitless, and the information available to an
observer far closer to complete, than in any real system. So, are
we arguing over the specifics errors of the theories on which
Camelot's economy was built, or the general question of whether game
economies can offer economic insights not accessible to economists
that restrict themselves to the real world?
The existence of the first I am quite willing to grant, there were
and are many shortcomings in the Camelot economy (although I still
do not believe "forcing" irrationality was or could be one of them).
The second, at a minimum, is not yet resolved.
>> That was then, this is now: Even with complete information,
>> players still make irrational decisions.
> Perhaps here's the rub: a designer cannot force players to make
> rational market decisions, but a designer can force players to
> make irrational market decisions (by preventing them from making
> rational market choices). That is a bit over-simplified, though,
> and I hesitate to state it--because the sets of players in the two
> instances are not identical.
> While a designer can't force player to make rationally their
> market decisions, a designer can and does profoundly affect such
> player's ability to make the rational market decision. The design
> challenge is to maximize players' ability to make rationally their
> market decisions.
> Player's still don't have anywhere near complete information in
> Camelot. Information-hiding with respect to the goods was just
> one example. Efficient information propagation applies to all
> aspects of the economy as well as the game. Camelot is still much
> closer to incomplete than complete on the spectrum.
I would argue that their information *is* much closer to complete
than is normally available to economic actors. After all, the
equations behind the system would fit on a single sheet of paper,
with room left over. Last I checked, what little had not been made
available to them, they had deduced from what was (in fact, some of
it did not match the equations on that hypothetical sheet of paper,
in nearly all cases the players were right and the system as
implemented did not match the system as concieved).
>> Such as what? For example, right now in Camelot, player-crafted
>> dominates for those pieces that *can* be crafted, but that's only
>> 8 out of 14 slots, the other 6 slots must be filled with
>> dropped/quested pieces (and the 8 crafted pieces spell-crafted to
>> match up with them). Isn't this "complementary"?
> Perhaps it's "complementary" in some sense, but not as I mean it.
> To cop from a commercial (BASF, I think?), crafters' motto should
> be: "We don't make the loot, we make the loot better." That
> captures the spirit in which I mean "complement."
> Your argument is that because crafting competes with (and almost
> completely destroys demand for) drops for *only* 8 of 14 slots,
> it's "complementary."
> As for "fundamental change in the approach to economic
> game-space," I would expand the statement by deleting "economic"
> so that it is clear that economy should be a fundamental concern
> with respect to the entire game design. At least insofar as the
> general game-space has a profound effect on the demand for items.
> Consider the faux-diversity of Camelot's character stats/skills
> (both inter- and intra-realm). The benefits (if any) are
> ephemeral. The costs are great. It decreases potential demand
> for drops. As a result, Mythic's item-guy(gal) is *way*
> overworked (the random item generator helps a bit)--and (s)he
> can't really compete with spellcrafting because (s)he must
> "balance" potential utility among multiple classes. Such design
> also severely restricts "fun" on the cooperative servers.
I'll grant this, resolving the problem of drops and crafted having
to compete on the same scale was never really resolved. It's my
belief that as long as they *are* competing on the same scale, the
problem is unsolvable, one or the other will always dominate.
--Dave - D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Chris Schofield
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Rayzam
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Timothy Dang
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Rayzam
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Rayzam
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" shren
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Zach Collins {Siege}
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Sean Kelly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Sean Kelly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Harrok
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Damion Schubert
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Harrok
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Travis Casey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Michael Tresca
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" David Kennerly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Martin Bassie
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Lee Sheldon
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Damion Schubert
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matthew Dobervich
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Alex Kay
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Scott Jennings
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Scott Jennings
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Baar - Lord of the Seven Suns
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Derek Licciardi
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" shren
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Edward Glowacki
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Kwon J. Ekstrom
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Talanithus HTML
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dr. Cat
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Travis Casey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Samurai Cat @ Catacombs
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Travis Casey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Travis Casey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Freeman, Jeff
- pluggable MMOGs ceo
- pluggable MMOGs John Robert Arras
- pluggable MMOGs ceo
- pluggable MMOGs Daniel James
- pluggable MMOGs ceo
- pluggable MMOGs Lee Sheldon
- pluggable MMOGs ceo
- pluggable MMOGs Lee Sheldon
- NEWS: Planetside preview @ UGO Louis
- 'Stop and smell the roses' (was Winnable MMO) lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- 'Stop and smell the roses' (was Winnable MMO) Damion Schubert
- 'Stop and smell the roses' (was Winnable MMO) Threshold RPG
- 'Stop and smell the roses' (was Winnable MMO) Baar - Lord of the Seven Suns
- 'Stop and smell the roses' (was Winnable MMO) Alex Kay
- MMORPG Politics (was D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity") Kwip
- MMORPG Politics (was D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity") David Kennerly
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Gavin Doughtie
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Kristen Koster
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Richard A. Bartle
- Who Killed Miss Norway? rkoster@soe.sony.com
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Michael Chui
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Crosbie Fitch
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Matt Mihaly
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Michael Montague
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Richard A. Bartle
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Koster, Raph
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Richard A. Bartle
- Who Killed Miss Norway? shren
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Richard A. Bartle
- Who Killed Miss Norway? F. Randall Farmer
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Gubbs
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Tess Snider
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Steven J. Owens
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Ren Reynolds
- Who Killed Miss Norway? F. Randall Farmer
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Amanda Walker
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Matt Mihaly
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Valerio Santinelli
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Geir Ove Alnes
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Jeff Bachtel
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Benjamin Tolputt
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Geir Ove Alnes
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Marian Griffith
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Ghovs
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Marian Griffith
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Marian Griffith
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Paul Schwanz
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Paul Schwanz
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Jeremy Lee
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Lance Rotten
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Jacob Cord
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Mike Shaver
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Zach Collins {Siege}
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Mike Shaver
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Matthew D. Fuller
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Mike Shaver
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! David Clifton
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Sean Kelly
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Norman Morse
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Sean Kelly
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Mike Shaver
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Byron Ellacott
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Jo Dillon
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! shren
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Eric Merritt
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! shren
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Eric Merritt
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Byron Ellacott
- Game On(line) for Microsoft, Sony Michael Tresca
- Game On(line) for Microsoft, Sony Alex Kay
- ILG Creative Director Larry Dunlap to speak at E3 Panel Scott Miller
- Male and female brains Koster, Raph
- Male and female brains Richard A. Bartle
- Male and female brains Patricia Pizer
- Male and female brains Steven J. Owens
- Male and female brains Valerio Santinelli
- Male and female brains Richard A. Bartle
- Male and female brains Robin Cloutman
- Male and female brains Valerio Santinelli
- Male and female brains Paul Schwanz
- Male and female brains Valerio Santinelli
- Male and female brains Rayzam
- Male and female brains Marian Griffith
- Male and female brains John Arras
- Male and female brains Marian Griffith
- Male and female brains John Arras
- Male and female brains Tess Snider
- Male and female brains Marian Griffith
- Male and female brains John Arras
- Male and female brains Rayzam
- Male and female brains Valerio Santinelli
- Male and female brains Larry Dunlap at ILG
- student informational interview feebleman