April 2003
- Improper Assessment Brian Lindahl
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Chris Holko
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Louis
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Freeman, Jeff
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Bad Mojo
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" a t y mcguire
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Chris Holko
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Damion Schubert
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Boyle, Paul
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Damion Schubert
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Amanda Walker
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Sean Kelly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Amanda Walker
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel Anderson
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel Anderson
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ben Hoyt
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Canniff
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Zach Collins {Siege}
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Chris Schofield
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Rayzam
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Timothy Dang
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Rayzam
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Rayzam
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" shren
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Zach Collins {Siege}
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Sean Kelly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Sean Kelly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Harrok
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Damion Schubert
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Harrok
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Travis Casey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
<EdNote: Minor phrasing edits made.>
From: Threshold RPG [mailto:business@threshold-rpg.com]
> However, that is not the issue here. Ryan Dancey made the
> assertion that D&D is too compex for an MMORPG with the current
> state of computer technology. That is a statement that, in my
> opinion, demonstrates an extreme lack of experience with MUDs and
> MMORPGs. It sounds like the opinion of someone whose experience
> with online RPGs is the extremely stripped down Neverwinter Nights
> game created by Bioware. The reality of *QUALITY* MUDs and MMORPGs
> is a far different thing than what he seems to be familiar with.
You've ignored most of my original post, and focused exclusively on
the sub-part of a response in thread to that post dealing with
weapons, and when doing so, ignored the portions of that response
dealting with weapons in particular that didn't jibe with your
notions of "complexity". In so doing, by disagreeing with a part of
my response and not responding to the whole, then responding to a
response "in thread", while continuing to ignore the part of my
statements that refuted your disagreement prima facie, then
summarizing my position incorrectly, you've done a fine job of
setting up, then overcoming, a straw man argument.
My contention, with enumerated examples, is that the current state
of the art MUD/MOO/MMORPG software is simply too simplistic to
effectively replicate the gaming experience of D&D (and by
extension, most modern tabletop RPG systems).
I will resumarize my argument:
1. Small number of distinct opponents
Typical MMORPGs have a small selection of base creatures, which
are altered by adding size, coloration, weapons, and special
effects to generate the opponents faced by the PCs during play.
These alterations, in virtually all cases, serve only to make
the opponents "tougher" rather than substantially alter the
nature of the challenge faced by the players. This compares to
even core-book only D&D which has something like 300 different
creatures; all of which can be used in the same way the "base
creatures" are in typical MMORPG environments, and most of which
were designed to present unique and different challenges to the
PCs.
MMORPGs suffer in this regard because each new type of opponent
requires extensive software development, plus the creation of
new models and other graphic design; the incremental cost to add
a whole new creature type to an MMORPG is vastly higher, when
compared to overall budget, to the cost to add an all-new
creature type to a TRPG.
2. Small number of distinct weapons
Typical MMORPGs have a small selection of base weapons, which
are altered primarily by adding spell effects or by altering the
weilding creature's stats. The net effect of these alterations
is that most MMORPG weapons do essentially the same thing (cut,
bludgeon, stab, or penetrate from a distance) regardless of the
alterations added to produce secondary effects or enhance
weilder abilities. This contrasts with D&D which presents
dozens of weapons with wildly varient abilities, within a
framework replicating virtually everything that the MMORPG
weapon enhancements do as well.
MMORPGs suffer in this case from essentially the same problem
they face when considering diversity of monsterous opponents:
Making nonstandard weapons requires writing a large amount of
code, plus devoting resources to graphics and rendering support
for those nonstandard effects. It is a lot harder to encode the
effects and visual display of a whip type weapon than it is to
make a pre-existing sword model glow blue.
3. Lack of diversity in spell effects
Typical MMORPGs have spell effects that are limited in scope,
range, duration and effect when compared to the spells available
in D&D. Spell levels in most MMORPGs just scale up the effects
of a previously existing spell, while spell levels in D&D
usually present whole new kinds of spell effect.
MMORPGs suffer in this case from the dual problem of coding
costs and design resources, and from the innately limited nature
of their format - that is, the inability of the code to interact
with a whole world (or universe), but instead being restricted
to a tiny sliver of the world and a time-state of "now", and
without the ability to interject ad hoc creativity and/or
judgement into the application of the spell effects due to the
current non-availability of computerized AI to direct such
operations and the prohibitive costs of having a live operator
available to supply it in meatspace.
4. Lack of diversity in combat action options
Typical MMORPGs have combat systems that limit participants into
a very few choices of action (in the case of some games in
cluding the most popular, EQ, non-spellcasing player combat
options are essentially constrained to "fight or flee"). The
typical MMORPG system cannot provide much more in terms of
player options because each potential branching subtree of
player (or opponent) activity creates a substantial cost and
design resource commitment. In addition, most current MMORPG
technology assumes a rather limited universe of environmental
factors (relative combatant height, relative combatant speed,
and weather pretty much round out the list); D&D on the other
hand (while also factoring in those aspects used by MMORPGs),
also takes into account factors such as multiplanar
intersection, cover & concealment, and zones of control (attacks
of opportunity).
With regard to combat complexity, MMORPGs suffer from cost
issues for coding and design, the limited nature of the
simulation they present to the player, and from issues related
to the need to ship data between clients & servers. The more
options a game offers its players, the more sophisticated the
control system must be to back up those options, and as the
control system gets more sophisticated, more data needs to
transit the network. As the amount of data being transmitted
goes up, so too does the inherent requirements of the system's
infrastructure - creating another cost/benefit feedback loop.
I assure you that my understanding of the MUD/MOO/MMORPG environment
is considerably more extensive than that held by someone who has
experience with NWN and not much else. I have played, analyzed, and
participated in the design of, computer adventure games since the
mid 1980s. I write software for a living, in addition to owning and
operating an ISP, and, not coincidentally, also own and operate
PlayerAuctions.com, the world's largest market for EQ items,
characters and platinum.
I am curious now, having stated some of my credentials, to find out
what yours are. Have you played/do you play a modern tabletop RPG?
Have you designed one?
<EdNote: Please exercise care in reply to this section of this
message. Personal comparison or lording is not welcome on the list.
Ideas are debated, not people. If you have doubts on what this
means, or what is being prevented, please read the "Note from the
list owner" on the list page with attention paid to the paragraphs
concerning chest puffing and guest status. Accomplishment and
experience are worthy of respect, but are not weapons.>
Ryan - D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
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