April 2003
- Improper Assessment Brian Lindahl
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Chris Holko
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Louis
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Freeman, Jeff
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Bad Mojo
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" a t y mcguire
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Chris Holko
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Damion Schubert
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Boyle, Paul
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Damion Schubert
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Amanda Walker
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Sean Kelly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Amanda Walker
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel Anderson
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel Anderson
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ben Hoyt
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Canniff
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Zach Collins {Siege}
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Chris Schofield
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Rayzam
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Timothy Dang
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Rayzam
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Rayzam
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" shren
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Zach Collins {Siege}
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Sean Kelly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Sean Kelly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Harrok
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Damion Schubert
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Harrok
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Travis Casey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Michael Tresca
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" David Kennerly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Martin Bassie
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Lee Sheldon
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Damion Schubert
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matthew Dobervich
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Alex Kay
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Scott Jennings
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Scott Jennings
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Baar - Lord of the Seven Suns
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 lynx@lynx.purrsia.com wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Matt Mihaly wrote:
>> Nope, I don't. Your example may be hypothetical but I've been
>> running games with much-more-intensive political systems for
>> years. Players can more or less opt out of politics but they
>> suffer some for it. They lose the advantages that membership in
>> political organizations can bestow such as a relatively safe
>> geographical haven and even just a simple community.
> I'm glad that you've been able to run games with fine political
> systems, I'm just commenting that politics could be thought out
> not as a way to allow players to govern themselves, or to force
> players to do so, but as a separate game system that just happens
> to work in 'political' terms.
Well that's what it is. It's not as if there's a hard distinction
between "world" aspects and "game" aspects."
> PCs are incapable of seeing, or capable of willfully ignoring, a
> politician's 'charisma' statistic or politically related skills.
> They're quite capable of ganging up for the most petty of reasons,
> and they take losing very badly. Since any contest of politicians
> involves one winner and one or more losers, this is bound to
> result in some dissatisfaction.
If PCs are ignoring someone, their charisma is, by definition,
lacking. If you can't get people to follow you, you've got no
charisma, whatever the game may say. It's like having a tangible
alignment stat: silly. (And we have one. It's still silly and was a
dumb design decision on our part.)
> The reason why I suggested an NPC/PC mix is because insofar as you
> have players being ruled by others, you want the option for the
> players to be able to evict a politician who is gaming the system,
> but in the case where they don't care, you can feel free to let
> players run amok a bit and abuse the NPC citizens, or the players
> who think that it's fun to live in a war- and revolution-torn
> area.
Ruling an NPC is the Sims. Ruling players is something else. There's
little point in trying to equate an NPC and a player in any way as
they're not even remotely similar.
> When I see people discussing governmental systems with apparent
> dead seriousness, I feel inclined to point out that these are, by
> and large, games we are making. Are they going to be fun, or will
> people feel like they're doing homework in order to get ahead?
Clearly, they're supposed to be fun. We have some of the largest
commercial text MUDs in the world, so I'd say they probably are fun
considering how fundamental they are to the gameplay of our games.
Whether they're applicable to a game two magnitudes the size (ie
Everquest) isn't something I can do more than speculate on, though I
haven't seen any reason why some version of our systems couldn't be
implemented. One wouldn't do so detail-for-detail of course.
> But, that's not to say there's anything wrong with complex
> player-to-player politics. It's just, be careful not to get
> bitten by the 'making a perfect utopia' bug.
Yeah, I agree. I have to constantly remind myself that a lot of
money has been wasted doing that.
--matt
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Derek Licciardi
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" shren
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Edward Glowacki
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Kwon J. Ekstrom
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Talanithus HTML
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dr. Cat
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Travis Casey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Samurai Cat @ Catacombs
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Travis Casey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Travis Casey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Freeman, Jeff
- pluggable MMOGs ceo
- pluggable MMOGs John Robert Arras
- pluggable MMOGs ceo
- pluggable MMOGs Daniel James
- pluggable MMOGs ceo
- pluggable MMOGs Lee Sheldon
- pluggable MMOGs ceo
- pluggable MMOGs Lee Sheldon
- NEWS: Planetside preview @ UGO Louis
- 'Stop and smell the roses' (was Winnable MMO) lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- 'Stop and smell the roses' (was Winnable MMO) Damion Schubert
- 'Stop and smell the roses' (was Winnable MMO) Threshold RPG
- 'Stop and smell the roses' (was Winnable MMO) Baar - Lord of the Seven Suns
- 'Stop and smell the roses' (was Winnable MMO) Alex Kay
- MMORPG Politics (was D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity") Kwip
- MMORPG Politics (was D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity") David Kennerly
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Gavin Doughtie
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Kristen Koster
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Richard A. Bartle
- Who Killed Miss Norway? rkoster@soe.sony.com
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Michael Chui
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Crosbie Fitch
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Matt Mihaly
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Michael Montague
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Richard A. Bartle
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Koster, Raph
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Richard A. Bartle
- Who Killed Miss Norway? shren
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Richard A. Bartle
- Who Killed Miss Norway? F. Randall Farmer
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Gubbs
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Tess Snider
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Steven J. Owens
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Ren Reynolds
- Who Killed Miss Norway? F. Randall Farmer
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Amanda Walker
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Matt Mihaly
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Valerio Santinelli
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Geir Ove Alnes
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Jeff Bachtel
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Benjamin Tolputt
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Geir Ove Alnes
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Marian Griffith
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Ghovs
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Marian Griffith
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Marian Griffith
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Paul Schwanz
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Paul Schwanz
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Jeremy Lee
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Lance Rotten
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Jacob Cord
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Mike Shaver
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Zach Collins {Siege}
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Mike Shaver
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Matthew D. Fuller
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Mike Shaver
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! David Clifton
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Sean Kelly
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Norman Morse
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Sean Kelly
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Mike Shaver
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Byron Ellacott
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Jo Dillon
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! shren
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Eric Merritt
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! shren
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Eric Merritt
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Byron Ellacott
- Game On(line) for Microsoft, Sony Michael Tresca
- Game On(line) for Microsoft, Sony Alex Kay
- ILG Creative Director Larry Dunlap to speak at E3 Panel Scott Miller
- Male and female brains Koster, Raph
- Male and female brains Richard A. Bartle
- Male and female brains Patricia Pizer
- Male and female brains Steven J. Owens
- Male and female brains Valerio Santinelli
- Male and female brains Richard A. Bartle
- Male and female brains Robin Cloutman
- Male and female brains Valerio Santinelli
- Male and female brains Paul Schwanz
- Male and female brains Valerio Santinelli
- Male and female brains Rayzam
- Male and female brains Marian Griffith
- Male and female brains John Arras
- Male and female brains Marian Griffith
- Male and female brains John Arras
- Male and female brains Tess Snider
- Male and female brains Marian Griffith
- Male and female brains John Arras
- Male and female brains Rayzam
- Male and female brains Valerio Santinelli
- Male and female brains Larry Dunlap at ILG
- student informational interview feebleman