April 2003
- Improper Assessment Brian Lindahl
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Chris Holko
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Louis
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Freeman, Jeff
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Bad Mojo
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" a t y mcguire
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Chris Holko
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Damion Schubert
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Boyle, Paul
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Damion Schubert
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Amanda Walker
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Sean Kelly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Amanda Walker
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel Anderson
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel Anderson
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ben Hoyt
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Canniff
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Zach Collins {Siege}
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Chris Schofield
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Rayzam
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Jeff Cole
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Timothy Dang
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Rayzam
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dave Rickey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Rayzam
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Marian Griffith
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" shren
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Zach Collins {Siege}
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Sean Kelly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Sean Kelly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Harrok
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Damion Schubert
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Harrok
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Travis Casey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Michael Tresca
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" David Kennerly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Martin Bassie
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Lee Sheldon
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Damion Schubert
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matthew Dobervich
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Alex Kay
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Scott Jennings
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Scott Jennings
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" John Buehler
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Baar - Lord of the Seven Suns
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Derek Licciardi
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Paul Schwanz
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" shren
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Matt Mihaly
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Edward Glowacki
On Mon, 2003-04-07 at 18:10, Ryan S. Dancey wrote:
> In fact, having played most of the current MMORPG offerings, I'm
> tempted to say that the MUD-Dev community has a long, long way to
> go before the complexity of the games offered on-line begins to
> match up to the complexity of most popular tabletop RPG systems.
> Sure, those systems usually don't bother with a real-world
> physical model, and while I have an understanding of the coding
> complexities required to achieve those effects I consider them at
> best windowdressing on top of what amount to very, very simple
> games.
I think the whole difference between D&D and a MMORPG boils down to
one thing: Having a GM vs. not having a GM. Most of the technical
issues are of lesser importance to creating a "depth of
experience"[1], so long as the basic game platform allows for a
reasonable range of flexibility.
Take for example some of the more "advanced" spells you mentioned,
like the ability to "research the future". With a GM, you can
research the future and see "Your character is going to be killed
tomorrow by a big orc." The DM can then make that event happen as
predicted, regardless of the "rules" of the game, e.g. "You slip on
a rock and fall onto the orc's sword." Without a GM interactively
controlling those types of events, and improvising stuff on the
spot, your obviously going to have a less "complex"[1] game.
The obvious cause of MMORPG's not having a GM/player ratio similar
to D&D sessions is cost. D&D sessions are very cheap to play, as
once you buy the books, the GM can design his own campaigns and you
play the whole thing with pen and paper which is very cheap. A
MMORPG on the other hand is very expensive to operate, requiring
technical support, artists and musicians and animators and
programmers etc. just to support the basic game functions (i.e. the
pen and paper part). In addition, to get a comparable GM/player
ratio to that of D&D (say one GM per 4-5 players on average), a
100,000 active connection MMORPG would require 20,000-25,000 GM's!!
Assuming a fully trained GM (of sufficient quality to provide
commercial grade service) makes only $10/hour (including all
benefits and overhead costs for the GM, NOT including costs for the
game environment itself), that splits to $2-$2.50/hour per player
just to pay the DM's. That alone is going to limit their
mass-market appeal.
[1] "depth of experience" and "complex" in quotes because as Matt
Mihaly said in another reply, MMORPG's can do much better than small
group D&D games in terms of political and social complexity.
-ED
--
Edward Glowacki <glowack2@msu.edu> - D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Kwon J. Ekstrom
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Talanithus HTML
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Dr. Cat
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Vincent Archer
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Travis Casey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Samurai Cat @ Catacombs
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Travis Casey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Travis Casey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Ryan S. Dancey
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Threshold RPG
- D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity" Freeman, Jeff
- pluggable MMOGs ceo
- pluggable MMOGs John Robert Arras
- pluggable MMOGs ceo
- pluggable MMOGs Daniel James
- pluggable MMOGs ceo
- pluggable MMOGs Lee Sheldon
- pluggable MMOGs ceo
- pluggable MMOGs Lee Sheldon
- NEWS: Planetside preview @ UGO Louis
- 'Stop and smell the roses' (was Winnable MMO) lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- 'Stop and smell the roses' (was Winnable MMO) Damion Schubert
- 'Stop and smell the roses' (was Winnable MMO) Threshold RPG
- 'Stop and smell the roses' (was Winnable MMO) Baar - Lord of the Seven Suns
- 'Stop and smell the roses' (was Winnable MMO) Alex Kay
- MMORPG Politics (was D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity") Kwip
- MMORPG Politics (was D&D vs. MMORPG "complexity") David Kennerly
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Gavin Doughtie
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Kristen Koster
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Richard A. Bartle
- Who Killed Miss Norway? rkoster@soe.sony.com
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Michael Chui
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Crosbie Fitch
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Matt Mihaly
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Michael Montague
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Richard A. Bartle
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Koster, Raph
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Richard A. Bartle
- Who Killed Miss Norway? shren
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Richard A. Bartle
- Who Killed Miss Norway? F. Randall Farmer
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Gubbs
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Tess Snider
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Steven J. Owens
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Ren Reynolds
- Who Killed Miss Norway? F. Randall Farmer
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Amanda Walker
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Matt Mihaly
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Valerio Santinelli
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Geir Ove Alnes
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Jeff Bachtel
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Benjamin Tolputt
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Geir Ove Alnes
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Marian Griffith
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Ghovs
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Marian Griffith
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Marian Griffith
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Threshold RPG
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Paul Schwanz
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Paul Schwanz
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Who Killed Miss Norway? Jeremy Lee
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Lance Rotten
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Jacob Cord
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Mike Shaver
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Zach Collins {Siege}
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Mike Shaver
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Matthew D. Fuller
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Mike Shaver
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! David Clifton
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Sean Kelly
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Norman Morse
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Sean Kelly
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Mike Shaver
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Byron Ellacott
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Jo Dillon
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! shren
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Eric Merritt
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! shren
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Eric Merritt
- New to MUD Dev, need friendly advice! Byron Ellacott
- Game On(line) for Microsoft, Sony Michael Tresca
- Game On(line) for Microsoft, Sony Alex Kay
- ILG Creative Director Larry Dunlap to speak at E3 Panel Scott Miller
- Male and female brains Koster, Raph
- Male and female brains Richard A. Bartle
- Male and female brains Patricia Pizer
- Male and female brains Steven J. Owens
- Male and female brains Valerio Santinelli
- Male and female brains Richard A. Bartle
- Male and female brains Robin Cloutman
- Male and female brains Valerio Santinelli
- Male and female brains Paul Schwanz
- Male and female brains Valerio Santinelli
- Male and female brains Rayzam
- Male and female brains Marian Griffith
- Male and female brains John Arras
- Male and female brains Marian Griffith
- Male and female brains John Arras
- Male and female brains Tess Snider
- Male and female brains Marian Griffith
- Male and female brains John Arras
- Male and female brains Rayzam
- Male and female brains Valerio Santinelli
- Male and female brains Larry Dunlap at ILG
- student informational interview feebleman