January 2003
- Crafting Money eric leaf
- Crafting Money Derek Licciardi
- Crafting Money eric
- Crafting Money Derek Licciardi
- Crafting Money Kent Peterson
- EthernalQuest Valerio Santinelli
- EthernalQuest Dubious Advocate
- EthernalQuest Jason Gauthier
- EthernalQuest Frank Crowell
- EthernalQuest Valerio Santinelli
- EthernalQuest Frank Crowell
- EthernalQuest Valerio Santinelli
- EthernalQuest Frank Crowell
- FOVs and rendering tricks to vastly improve immersiveness ceo@grexengine.com
- Brand Loyalty Dr. Cat
- Failure of Emulation was EthernalQuest eric rhea
- Failure of Emulation was EthernalQuest Valerio Santinelli
- Failure of Emulation was EthernalQuest eric rhea
- Treadmills (was Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM (wasComplexities of MMOG Servers))) John Szeder
- Massive Corporations and MMORPGs Michael Tresca
- Re : Persistent worlds in NWN (was: Retention without Addiction?) Louis d'Ambra
- Daily Turn-Based System atomly
- Daily Turn-Based System szii@sziisoft.com
- Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM (wasComp lexities of MMOG Servers)) Hulbert, Leland
- Casual player socialization & Bertering ceo@grexengine.com
- Casual player socialization & Bertering Ted L. Chen
- Casual player socialization & Bertering ceo@grexengine.com
- there.com susan wu
- Whereabouts of 'Evil MUD Admin' Handbook Jacob Cord
- Whereabouts of 'Evil MUD Admin' Handbook Koster, Raph
- Whereabouts of 'Evil MUD Admin' Handbook Jacob Cord
- Whereabouts of 'Evil MUD Admin' Handbook Michael Tresca
- Whereabouts of 'Evil MUD Admin' Handbook Richard A. Bartle
- Whereabouts of 'Evil MUD Admin' Handbook Koster, Raph
- Whereabouts of 'Evil MUD Admin' Handbook Koster, Raph
- Whereabouts of 'Evil MUD Admin' Handbook Richard A. Bartle
- Whereabouts of 'Evil MUD Admin' Handbook J C Lawrence
- Whereabouts of 'Evil MUD Admin' Handbook Richard A. Bartle
- Whereabouts of 'Evil MUD Admin' Handbook J C Lawrence
- Whereabouts of 'Evil MUD Admin' Handbook Richard A. Bartle
- Treadmills vs. Skill (was Brand Loyalty...) Daniel James
- Treadmills vs. Skill (was Brand Loyalty...) Koster, Raph
- Treadmills vs. Skill (was Brand Loyalty...) Dave Rickey
- Treadmills vs. Skill (was Brand Loyalty...) Damion Schubert
- Treadmills vs. Skill (was Brand Loyalty...) Brian Lindahl
- Treadmills vs. Skill (was Brand Loyalty...) Ted Milker
- Treadmills vs. Skill (was Brand Loyalty...) Matt Mihaly
- Brand Loyalty Dr. Cat
- Working with Franchises (was Star Wars Galaxies: 1 char per server) Damion Schubert
- Working with Franchises (was Star Wars Galaxies: 1 char per server) Michael Tresca
- Working with Franchises (was Star Wars Galaxies: 1 char per server) Dave Rickey
- Working with Franchises (was Star Wars Galaxies: 1 char per server) Rayzam
- Working with Franchises (was Star Wars Galaxies: 1 char per server) Amanda Walker
- Working with Franchises (was Star Wars Galaxies: 1 char per server) Arnau RossellX CastellX
- Working with Franchises (was Star Wars Galaxies: 1 char per server) Michael Tresca
- Working with Franchises (was Star Wars Galaxies: 1 char per server) Damion Schubert
- Working with Franchises (was Star Wars Galaxies: 1 char per server) Ron Gabbard
- There.Com Amy Jo Kim
- There.Com Rayzam
- Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM (wasComp lexities of MM Paul Boyle
- Powergaming (was Star Wars Galaxies: 1 character per server) Damion Schubert
- Nick Yee's Daedalus Project Koster, Raph
- Nick Yee's Daedalus Project Sasha Hart
- Nick Yee's Daedalus Project apollyon .
- Nick Yee's Daedalus Project Louis
- Nick Yee's Daedalus Project Dave Rickey
- New Graphical Mud chris johnson
- Chatbots charl7676@yahoo.com
- Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM(wasComplexities of MMOG Servers)) Marc Fielding
- Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM(wasComplexities of MMOG Servers)) Rayzam
- Treadmills (was Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM (wasComplexities of MMOG Servers))) szii@sziisoft.com
From: "Dave Rickey" <daver@mythicentertainment.com>
> From Mike/Szii:
>> Treadmills are driving players AWAY from the games.
> Where's your evidence of this? Beyond anecdotes by the few dozen
> habitual posters at rant sites? How would I go about proving
> this? Because I've got gigabytes of data on the players of DAoC,
> and the only concrete indication I ever found of players hating
> the treadmill was a tendency for them to quit when they hit the
> "wall" at level 41 (which no longer exists).
Perhaps I misworded it. Treadmills aren't driving players away from
the games, per se, but they're causing gamers to not be as willing
to "start over" on the next game that's put out. It's hampering the
game-hopping, which may be good for retention, but it means that new
games have to overcome the stigma of "just another treadmill" in
order to coerce the players to abandon all of their work in their
current game and start over in the new world. There has to be a
compelling "oooh!"
I have no evidence, no logfiles, no data besides a whole lot of
playtime and a whole lot of talking. Persistant BBS doors, MUDs,
UO, EQ, AO. I've not played DaoC or AC.
People like moving ahead. Starting over in a new world and leaving
their hard work (character levels, gear, houses, whatever) is not
well received by a lot of people. Powergamers seem to do it because
they hunger for new content/worlds/sights so badly. The same can be
said for explorers. The majority of people I've talked to (again:
heresay) don't like losing everything they've worked for to start
over and dedicate the TIME to a new character.
I wish I'd have kept logs and tracked it. It's not been a formal
thing, just something that comes up regularly as "new game X" is
nearing completion. It would be interesting to see a large
gaming-fansite put up a poll on:
"What is the one major reason you would not leave your current
game?"
1) I've invested too much time/I don't have the time to start
over.
2) I don't have the energy to play a new game.
3) I've made too many friends to consider leaving.
4) The game world is perfect for me.
5) The character's history is too strong, my ties run too deep.
From the games I've played in (heresay) and the cross-game guilds
I've been in (more heresay, no data) it's all about #1. #3 comes up
once in a while but it's kind of pointless...their friends may not
feel the same way. When the friends leave, it removes #3 from the
equation.
Ask a player to delete all of their characters and start over, no
twinking/alternate characters. Ask them to start over at level 1
with their stock newbie gear. See how many balk, and then ask them
why they would level up alts with twink-gear and why they'd have a
problem deleting all of their characters and starting over fresh.
The twinks have the advantage of powering through the levels - ie,
reducing the TIME it takes to run the treadmills. They have the
energy to start a new character - they have the interest in the
world and the people - yet they balk at starting over from scratch.
Why?
Now extrapolate that out - if they move to the next game, well,
they're starting over from scratch which we've just seen isn't well
received. Regardless of ANY incentive to move to the new game
(graphics, playability, guilds, world, etc) you're going to come
across the hurdle of "starting over." People don't like to lose
their investment (time.)
People don't mind starting over in Quake/UT/Doom. They have no
persistant investment even though they've spent hundreds of hours
playing. There's nothing to lose by starting over. No treadmills
to run except honing your own skills... yet somehow these games
garner a huge (recurring) audience.
With everyone building treadmills and "hoarding players" it's
interesting that I've got friends leaving game X because they don't
have time for Game X AND Game Y. I've also got friends NOT going to
play Game Y because they don't have time for both. Who benefits
from this? Why does a gamer have to choose a single game because
that's all they have time for? Because of the time-sinks, we now
have GameX and GameY with 1 person each.
My wife did a brief stint as a Mary Kay rep and one of the greatest
things I heard was the quote, "If I have one idea and you have one
idea then we each have two ideas." I have UT and CS installed at
home and I play both. In terms of "use" each game has "two players"
just not at the exact same time.
Remove the treadmills (or drastically change the implementation) and
you open up the possibility of "oh yeah, I play EQ and AO and DaoC."
They may not play it 100% of the time, but look at the pros/cons.
Some obvious examples include:
Pros:
- If you're subscription/monthly and they're not playing, it's
free money.
- Players don't burn out as quickly since they're not always
playing the same game.
- As above, if they're not playing as hard they're not moving
ahead as fast and game content remains fresh longer.
- People wouldn't be intimidated by new games and their implied
treadmills.
- More "casual gamers" would give the game a try knowing they
don't have to invest 2 zillion hours in order to see the
upper-middle of the game.
- Wider player-base as you're crossing over with other games.
Cons:
- You don't get to boast about "exclusive players."
- Your world is smaller at any given point in time. VCs may look
at this.
- You have to endure the "well, they did X in this game over here!
Why can't I do it?"
- Multiple subscription fees. (This is mitigated by the player
having the choice to only play one game.)
- Without treadmills, players MAY advance faster. This contrasts
the Pro above about content lasting longer. By putting in truly
"challenging" content at the high-end, you could keep people from
capping out as fast. Or it just creates more jobs as you pump out
more expansions.
The one upside/downside here is that it creates FAR more competition
in the industry to go this route. Companies are competing based on
the game and not retaining people via treadmills. The gamer
eventually wins out as the companies push each other, but it's far
more work for the companies who now have to face the possibility of
a more "fluid" playerbase. As new games come out the gamer may
choose to play that game, but if the game's fun without huge
timesinks then you're not really LOSING that player, just sharing.
(See Pros: #1)
-Mike "No data" Oxford - Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM (wasComplexities of MMOG Servers)) Sasha Hart
- Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM (wasComplexities of MMOG Servers)) Rayzam
- Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM (wasComp lexities of MMOG Servers)) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM(wasComplexities of MMOG Servers)) Sasha Hart
- Demodom (was Brand Loyalty (was...)) Ted L. Chen
- Demodom (was Brand Loyalty (was...)) Russell Lewis
- Demodom (was Brand Loyalty (was...)) Travis Nixon
- Demodom (was Brand Loyalty (was...)) Ted L. Chen
- Demodom (was Brand Loyalty (was...)) Damion Schubert
- Questions for User Surveys Nick Yee
- Questions for User Surveys Ted L. Chen
- Questions for User Surveys Marc Fielding
- Questions for User Surveys Quinn, Keith
- Questions for User Surveys Marc Fielding
- Questions for User Surveys Marc Fielding
- Questions for User Surveys Madrona Tree
- Questions for User Surveys Marc Fielding
- Questions for User Surveys bhoyt47@hotmail.com
- Questions for User Surveys shren
- Questions for User Surveys lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- Questions for User Surveys shren
- Questions for User Surveys lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- Questions for User Surveys shren
- Questions for User Surveys Jo Dillon
- Casual Powergamer Ben Hoyt
- Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM(wasCompl exities of MMOG Servers)) Sasha Hart
- Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM(wasCompl exities of MMOG Servers)) lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- Treadmills vs. Skill (was Brand Loyalty...) Koster, Raph
- Treadmills vs. Skill (was Brand Loyalty...) Zach Collins {Siege}
- Product Reviews of two MMOG server middleware products ceo@grexengine.com
- EPMG: New acronym on the block Arnau RossellX CastellX
- [MUD-De] Questions for User Surveys Jian Zhang - SISA
- Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM (wasComp lexities of MMOG Servers)) Sasha Hart
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) Freeman, Jeff
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) shren
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) Sean Kelly
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) shren
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) Sean Kelly
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) Smith, David {Lynchburg}
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) Dave Rickey
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) Sean Kelly
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) Smith, David {Lynchburg}
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) Sean Kelly
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) Smith, David {Lynchburg}
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) Rob Bartel
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) Ted L. Chen
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) Robert Zubek
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) Valerio Santinelli
- NWN gets more MUD-like (again) silk@blackdagger.com
- Random? Numbers (was:Brand Loyalty (was Require ments for MM(wasComplexities of MMOG Servers))) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Random? Numbers (was:Brand Loyalty (was Require ments for MM(wasComplexities of MMOG Servers))) Brian Hook
- Random? Numbers (was:Brand Loyalty (was Req uirements for MM(wasComplexities of MMOG Servers))) Freeman, Jeff
- Random? Numbers (was:Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM(wasComplexities of MMOG Servers))) Dave Rickey
- Random? Numbers (was:Brand Loyalty (was Require ments for MM(wasComplexities of MMOG Servers))) Lars Duening
- Random? Numbers (was:Brand Loyalty (was Req uire ments for MM(wasComplexities of MMOG Servers))) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Brand Loyalty Rayzam
- Brand Loyalty Sasha Hart
- Brand Loyalty Rayzam
- FW: Star Wars Galaxies: 1 character per server Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- FW: Star Wars Galaxies: 1 character per server shren
- FW: Star Wars Galaxies: 1 character per server Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Brand Loyalty Rayzam
- Moral / legal responsibility of games Sasha Hart
- Moral / legal responsibility of games Koster, Raph
- Moral / legal responsibility of games Sasha Hart
- Moral / legal responsibility of games GARY P WILLIAMS
- Moral / legal responsibility of games Koster, Raph
- Moral / legal responsibility of games Ben Hoyt
- Moral / legal responsibility of games Koster, Raph
- Moral / legal responsibility of games Ben Hoyt
- Moral / legal responsibility of games Amanda Walker
- Moral / legal responsibility of games Chris Holko
- ANSI/VT100/VT102 Emulation Bernard Graham
- ANSI/VT100/VT102 Emulation Jacob Cord
- ANSI/VT100/VT102 Emulation J C Lawrence
- ANSI/VT100/VT102 Emulation Kwon Ekstrom
- Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM(wasComplexities of MMOG Servers)) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM(wasCompl exities of MMOG Servers)) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Brand Loyalty (was Requirements for MM(wasComplexities of MMOG Servers)) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Spam: Star Wars Galaxies: 1 character per server John Buehler
- Spam: Star Wars Galaxies: 1 character per server Marc Fielding
- Spam: Star Wars Galaxies: 1 character per server John Buehler
- Spam: Star Wars Galaxies: 1 character per server Travis Nixon
- Spam: Star Wars Galaxies: 1 character per serve r Koster, Raph
- Spam: Star Wars Galaxies: 1 character per server Travis Nixon
- Spam: Star Wars Galaxies: 1 character per server Greg Roberts
- Programming Languages and I/O Algorithms Ben Chambers
- Programming Languages and I/O Algorithms Sasha Hart
- Programming Languages and I/O Algorithms Jo Dillon
- Programming Languages and I/O Algorithms Coyote
- Programming Languages and I/O Algorithms Zach Collins {Siege}
- Programming Languages and I/O Algorithms Kwon Ekstrom
- Programming Languages and I/O Algorithms Valerio Santinelli
- Programming Languages and I/O Algorithms Damion Schubert
- Programming Languages and I/O Algorithms Sean Kelly
- Programming Languages and I/O Algorithms Udo SchrXter
- Programming Languages and I/O Algorithms Kwon Ekstrom
- Reply to Caliban Star Wars Galaxies: 1 character per server CaBil@aol.com
- online games as economies, question from German journalist Konrad Lischka
- Working with Franchises Geoff Lane
- Working with Franchises Damion Schubert
- Greetings from Habbo Hotel Sulka Haro
- Greetings from Habbo Hotel F. Randall Farmer
- Greetings from Habbo Hotel Matt Mihaly
- Greetings from Habbo Hotel Vincent Archer
- Greetings from Habbo Hotel Matt Mihaly
- Greetings from Habbo Hotel Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Greetings from Habbo Hotel Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Greetings from Habbo Hotel Steven J. Owens
- Greetings from Habbo Hotel Matt Mihaly
- Greetings from Habbo Hotel Sulka Haro