February 2002
- Article: Moral Outrage - Bizarre as it seems, indignation makes the world go round (from New Scientist) Christopher Allen
- premium servers Matt Mihaly
- premium servers Talies the Wanderer
- premium servers Matt Mihaly
- premium servers Christopher Allen
- premium servers Christopher Allen
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Marian Griffith
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) rayzam
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) John Buehler
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Matt Mihaly
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Matt Mihaly
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Matt Mihaly
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Marian Griffith
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) John Buehler
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Matt Mihaly
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Sasha Hart
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Freeman, Jeff
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Matt Mihaly
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Matt Mihaly
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Madrona Tree
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Talies the Wanderer
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Marc Hernandez
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Sasha Hart
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Sasha Hart
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Rogue_Buddha
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Matt Mihaly
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Christopher Allen
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Sasha Hart
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- NEWS: Release of v0.21 of Murpg Core Mike Povoski
- story vs. screenplay Nicholas E. Walker
- story vs. screenplay Koster, Raph
- story vs. screenplay Sean K
- story vs. screenplay ghovs
- story vs. screenplay Nicholas E. Walker
- story vs. screenplay ghovs
- story vs. screenplay James Edward Gray II
- story vs. screenplay ghovs
- story vs. screenplay Marian Griffith
- story vs. screenplay Nicholas E. Walker
- story vs. screenplay Marian Griffith
- MUD Protocols? Neil Edwards
- MUD Protocols? Matt Owen
- MUD Protocols? Bruce Mitchener
- MUD Protocols? Andrew Wilson
- MUD Protocols? Phillip Lenhardt
- MUD Protocols? Lars Duening
- MUD Protocols? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD Protocols? Jon Leonard
- MUD Protocols? Chris Gray
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Koster, Raph
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Geoffrey MacDougall
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Matt Mihaly
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Rudy Fink
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Dave Shepherd
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Derek Licciardi
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Dave Rickey
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Richard A. Bartle
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Blane Bramble
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Sellers, Mike
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights kuvasza
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Matt Mihaly
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Frank Crowell
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Freeman, Jeff
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Frank Crowell
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Dave Rickey
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Dr. Cat
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Alex Kay
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Jeff Cole
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights John Buehler
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Jeff Cole
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights John Buehler
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Dr. Cat
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Matt Mihaly
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Vincent Archer
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights John Buehler
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Marc Bowden
- [BIZ] Players - GMs ratio Mathieu Castelli
- [BIZ] Players - GMs ratio Robert A. Rice Jr.
- [BIZ] Players - GMs ratio Mathieu Castelli
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Jeff Cole
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Matt Mihaly
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Koster, Raph
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Matt Mihaly
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Jeff Cole
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. John Buehler
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Marc Bowden
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Travis Casey
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Matt Mihaly
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. John Buehler
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Jon Lambert
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Michael Tresca
- Merc++ the_sage2000@juno.com
- ADMIN: Bullets. conservation of momentum etc J C Lawrence
- EULA Structure Eli Stevens
- EULA Structure Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- EULA Structure Matt Mihaly
- EULA Structure Frank Crowell
- EULA Structure Bruce Mitchener
- EULA Structure Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- EULA Structure Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Thank you from MudWorld ucmm@inetsolve.com
- Thank you from MudWorld Matt Mihaly
- Thank you from MudWorld Matt Owen
- Thank you from MudWorld Chris Lloyd
- Re[4]: "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- Re[4]: "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- Re[4]: "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Travis Casey wrote:
> Friday, February 08, 2002, 6:13:50 PM, Matt Mihaly wrote:
>> Hmm, I don't think we are. I think we can settle this pretty
>> easily too. If your character can know something, where is the
>> data stored? I maintain that it's stored in you and is thus part
>> of you.
> But it's not. Data about my character is stored in many places;
> some of it is in me, some of it is in my notebook, some of it is
> in my GM, some of it is in the GM's notebook, some of it is in
> other players in the game, some of it is in the character sheet,
> and so on.
> If the only information about my character were in my head, then
> it would be impossible for someone else to play my character --
> but it's not.
Nod, I mis-spoke really. It is, actually though, impossible for
someone to play your -specific- character. That would require that
everyone have exactly the same idea of what the character is, which
fundamentally is impossible. From an essay on Ideas by Dr. Harold
Brown, "Ideas are subjective in that individuals can be aware only
of their own ideas. If two individuals are imagining Pegasus or
thinking about the Pythagorean theorem, each is directly aware of a
distinct idea, although these ideas may share many features. This is
analogous to the sense in which two reproductions of the Mona Lisa
are distinct objects even though most of their properties are
identical, but it is impossible for one individual to inspect
another's ideas."
The salient point in my argument is that anything -you- do as a
roleplayer comes from you. A character cannot have any ideas (an
idea requires a mind) or thoughts. You can form the idea of a
character having an idea, but it is you having the idea and
pretending it was the character.
>> When you, playing a character, are talking to me, playing a
>> character, and we get to know each other, the information is
>> being stored in us.
> Yes, it is. But it also exists as a part of our characters. When
> someone else plays my character for me because I can't make the
> D&D game, my character doesn't suddenly stop knowing everyone it
> knew before. Indeed, when this happens, my character can meet and
> start to know a character that I'm not even aware of the existence
> of at the moment.
Well, I'd argue it's not the same character, but only a very similar
one. Leaving that aside for the sake of argument, your character
still doesn't gain any knowledge or know anything. You do, the GM
does, the other people playing your character do, etc. The character
IS real, but that's not the same thing as saying it has a mind.
> [the party has just met an NPC named Bubba]
> GM: Travis, Efindel [my character] already knows Bubba. The two
> of you were apprentices together under Magister Boffo.
> Me: What do I [*] know about him?
<snipped example trying to show a difference between Travis and a
character, Efindel>
Well, again, the character doesn't know any of that. The GM does.
> And, of course, there are also skill rolls and similar things. I
> can't draw a map of Efindel's home town of Tarnath, but Efindel
> can, since he has a good "Area Knowledge: Tarnath" skill. I don't
> know who the current ruler of the elven kingdom in my old GM's
> campaign is, but Efindel would, since he's still alive in that
> world. And so on.
Can he? So where is it? Who actually drew it? The person that
actually draws the map would have to know how to draw it, unless
you're willing to assert that he was possessed by a foreign
intelligence.
>> Characters are ideas, and don't have data storage
>> mechanisms. Avatars do, but characters and avatars aren't the same
>> thing, and people don't roleplay avatars. They roleplay characters
>> by using avatars (witness that many people play the character
>> Gandalf, using many different avatars).
> Characters do indeed have data storage mechanisms -- the memories of
> people and notes on paper. Further, I'd like to note that the
> distinction between "character" and "avatar" that you're making is not
> one that I recognize -- from my point of view, a character with a
> different "avatar" is not the same character.
In that case, there is no way to put aside the fact that you and the GM
are not talking about the same character, but merely characters with many
features in common. If a character in a new avatar is not the same
character, then a character in a different mind cannot be said to be the
same character either.
> It is, at most, a new character modeled after an existing
> character. (Now, loosely, we may speak of it as being "the same
> character". However, that's no more true than, say, saying that
> two different versions of an operating system are "the same
> operating system". They may have a lot of things in common, but
> they are not *exactly* the same operating system. We just call
> them "the same" as a matter of convenience.)
Oh, I agree totally, but I don't think you're going to be happy with
the consequences of that point of view.
> Thus, from my point of view, there are many different characters
> named Gandalf. They all have points of similarity, but they are
> different characters.
Yep, I'd agree with that. Again, in your examples, you and the GM
were not speaking of the same character, but different characters
sharing many similarities, so I'm back to just pointing out that the
character still resides entirely in you. (Characters are ideas, and
ideas can only exist in minds, not on paper or hard drives.)
--matt
- What's Important in a Driver? Jonathan Ross
- Everquest player survey with interesting points Olof Ekström
- Myth II Game server has gone open source Frank Crowell
- Question about threads. Anderson, David
- Question about threads. J C Lawrence
- Question about threads. Nathan F. Yospe
- Question about threads. Sean K
- Question about threads. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Question about threads. Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH : MUD game on a multi agent system Cyril MudDev
- TECH : MUD game on a multi agent system Marc Bowden
- TECH : MUD game on a multi agent system John Robert Arras
- TECH : MUD game on a multi agent system Robert Zubek
- Using the survey Info to make real factual argument WAS: Everquest player survey with interesting points Sasha Hart
- [BIZ] Selling Sex, Power, and Prestige Dave Kennerly
- [BIZ] Selling Sex, Power, and Prestige Sasha Hart
- Mob (NPC) behavior William Murdick
- Mob (NPC) behavior Freeman, Jeff
- Mob (NPC) behavior Valerio Santinelli
- Mob (NPC) behavior Sean K
- Mob (NPC) behavior Sasha Hart
- Mob (NPC) behavior J C Lawrence
- Mob (NPC) behavior Kevin Reid
- Mob (NPC) behavior Mike Povoski
- Mob (NPC) behavior Sasha Hart
- [TECH] Event Queue System the_sage2000@juno.com
- [TECH] Event Queue System Lars Duening
- [TECH] Event Queue System J C Lawrence
- [TECH] Event Queue System Phillip Lenhardt
- [TECH] Event Queue System Lars Duening
- [TECH] Event Queue System Blane Bramble
- [TECH] Event Queue System John Robert Arras
- [TECH] Event Queue System Kwon Ekstrom
- [TECH] Event Queue System Jon Leonard
- Immersion lawsuit Frank Crowell
- Spouse play (was Using the survey Info to make real Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Spouse play (was Using the survey Info to make real Lars Duening
- RP definitions J C Lawrence
- roleplaying Matt Mihaly
- Girl's Perspective (was: Boys and Girls) Katy Morris
- Girl's Perspective (was: Boys and Girls) Paul Schwanz
- Girl's Perspective (was: Boys and Girls) Katy Anderson {Morris}
- Girl's Perspective (was: Boys and Girls) Amanda Walker
- Spouse play Sasha Hart
- Student Interview Steve Wilson
- Statistics (was: Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls)) Sasha Hart
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- I 0Wn Y0o, d00d (Latest 'Biting The Hand' column at Skotos) Christopher Allen
- Online Worlds Timeline Update Koster, Raph
- Online Worlds Timeline Update Richard A. Bartle
- Online Worlds Timeline Update Christopher Allen
- Online Worlds Timeline Update Travis Casey
- Online Worlds Timeline Update Jeff Freeman
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Frank Crowell
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Eric Rhea
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Frank Crowell
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators bruce@cubik.org
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Frank Crowell
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Frank Crowell
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Frank Crowell
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Jon Lambert
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Travis Nixon
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Frank Crowell
- [TECH] Peer-to-peer downloads for MMO games Olof Ekstrom
- [TECH] Peer-to-peer downloads for MMO games Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [TECH] Peer-to-peer downloads for MMO games Oliver Jowett
- [TECH] Peer-to-peer downloads for MMO games Jon Leonard
- character longevity statistics Val Trullinger
- MajorMUD recollections. Online Worlds Timeline Update Patrick Mahle
- MajorMUD and other BBS MUDs (was: Online Worlds Timeline Update) Scott Jennings
- DaoC postmortem at Gamasutra Azeraab
- DaoC postmortem at Gamasutra Buddy Grizzard
- DaoC postmortem at Gamasutra Dave Rickey
- DaoC postmortem at Gamasutra Marc Bowden
- DaoC postmortem at Gamasutra Scott Jennings
- DaoC postmortem at Gamasutra Vincent Archer
- DaoC postmortem at Gamasutra Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- DaoC postmortem at Gamasutra Buddy Grizzard
- Skotos TT& Christopher Allen