February 2002
- Article: Moral Outrage - Bizarre as it seems, indignation makes the world go round (from New Scientist) Christopher Allen
- premium servers Matt Mihaly
- premium servers Talies the Wanderer
- premium servers Matt Mihaly
- premium servers Christopher Allen
- premium servers Christopher Allen
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Marian Griffith
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) rayzam
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) John Buehler
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Matt Mihaly
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Matt Mihaly
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Matt Mihaly
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Marian Griffith
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) John Buehler
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Matt Mihaly
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Sasha Hart
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Freeman, Jeff
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Matt Mihaly
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Matt Mihaly
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Madrona Tree
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Talies the Wanderer
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Marc Hernandez
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Sasha Hart
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Sasha Hart
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Rogue_Buddha
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Matt Mihaly
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Christopher Allen
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Sasha Hart
- Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- NEWS: Release of v0.21 of Murpg Core Mike Povoski
- story vs. screenplay Nicholas E. Walker
- story vs. screenplay Koster, Raph
- story vs. screenplay Sean K
- story vs. screenplay ghovs
- story vs. screenplay Nicholas E. Walker
- story vs. screenplay ghovs
- story vs. screenplay James Edward Gray II
- story vs. screenplay ghovs
- story vs. screenplay Marian Griffith
- story vs. screenplay Nicholas E. Walker
- story vs. screenplay Marian Griffith
- MUD Protocols? Neil Edwards
- MUD Protocols? Matt Owen
- MUD Protocols? Bruce Mitchener
- MUD Protocols? Andrew Wilson
- MUD Protocols? Phillip Lenhardt
- MUD Protocols? Lars Duening
- MUD Protocols? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- MUD Protocols? Jon Leonard
- MUD Protocols? Chris Gray
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Koster, Raph
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Geoffrey MacDougall
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Matt Mihaly
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Rudy Fink
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Dave Shepherd
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Derek Licciardi
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Dave Rickey
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Richard A. Bartle
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Blane Bramble
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Sellers, Mike
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights kuvasza
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Matt Mihaly
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Frank Crowell
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Freeman, Jeff
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Frank Crowell
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Dave Rickey
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Dr. Cat
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Alex Kay
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Jeff Cole
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights John Buehler
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Jeff Cole
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights John Buehler
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Dr. Cat
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Matt Mihaly
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Vincent Archer
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights John Buehler
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- BlackSnow sues Mythic for online property rights Marc Bowden
- [BIZ] Players - GMs ratio Mathieu Castelli
- [BIZ] Players - GMs ratio Robert A. Rice Jr.
- [BIZ] Players - GMs ratio Mathieu Castelli
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Jeff Cole
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Matt Mihaly
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Koster, Raph
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Matt Mihaly
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Jeff Cole
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. John Buehler
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Marc Bowden
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Travis Casey
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Matt Mihaly
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. John Buehler
- Ethical behavior ... a hijacking. Jon Lambert
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) J C Lawrence
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Michael Tresca
- Merc++ the_sage2000@juno.com
- ADMIN: Bullets. conservation of momentum etc J C Lawrence
- EULA Structure Eli Stevens
- EULA Structure Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- EULA Structure Matt Mihaly
- EULA Structure Frank Crowell
- EULA Structure Bruce Mitchener
- EULA Structure Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- EULA Structure Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Thank you from MudWorld ucmm@inetsolve.com
- Thank you from MudWorld Matt Mihaly
- Thank you from MudWorld Matt Owen
- Thank you from MudWorld Chris Lloyd
- Re[4]: "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Travis Casey
Friday, February 08, 2002, 6:13:50 PM, Matt Mihaly wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, Travis Casey wrote:
>> Thursday, February 07, 2002, 11:41:24 AM, Matt Mihaly wrote:
>>> But I don't think that's possible. Characters don't have the
>>> capability to know someone else. I can get to know things about
>>> Bill's character, but my character can't.
>> Well, I think it is possible -- and I maintain that I've
>> experienced it many times over the last twenty years. So I guess
>> we're at an impasse. :-)
> Hmm, I don't think we are. I think we can settle this pretty easily
> too. If your character can know something, where is the data stored?
> I maintain that it's stored in you and is thus part of you.
But it's not. Data about my character is stored in many places; some
of it is in me, some of it is in my notebook, some of it is in my GM,
some of it is in the GM's notebook, some of it is in other players in
the game, some of it is in the character sheet, and so on.
If the only information about my character were in my head, then it
would be impossible for someone else to play my character -- but it's
not.
> When
> you, playing a character, are talking to me, playing a character,
> and we get to know each other, the information is being stored in
> us.
Yes, it is. But it also exists as a part of our characters. When
someone else plays my character for me because I can't make the D&D
game, my character doesn't suddenly stop knowing everyone it knew
before. Indeed, when this happens, my character can meet and start to
know a character that I'm not even aware of the existence of at the
moment.
My character can also know things that I don't in other ways -- for
example, I've played in games where something like this would happen:
[the party has just met an NPC named Bubba]
GM: Travis, Efindel [my character] already knows Bubba. The two
of you were apprentices together under Magister Boffo.
Me: What do I [*] know about him?
GM: Back when you knew him before, he was a quiet, reserved type.
Kept to himself a lot. The two of you were assigned to work
together, though, so you got to know him fairly well. He was
a competent apprentice, a generally nice guy, and liked
animals. What was odd was that he had a strong interest in
necromancy. You remember that he used to stay at the workshop
late at night, studying it.
Me: Is that all?
GM: That's the gist of it. If you want to know anything specific,
just ask me. And if something comes up that reminds you of
something about him, I'll tell you.
[game proceeds]
* - Here I'm saying "I" when I really should be saying "my character".
A common thing for gamers to do, but it shouldn't be given any
real significance beyond the fact that I'm identifying with my
character.
Or, to give another example, from a different game:
GM: Ok, you've all arrived in Hardby. Since none of you know
anyone here...
Craig: Wait a second. Doesn't Tharlak know anyone here?
GM: I don't think so... Travis?
Me: Not that I remember.
Craig: I remember seeing in your character history that you
served as an acolyte in the temple of Melana in Hardby for
a couple of years.
[I flip through my notebook quickly.]
Me: Ah, here it is... Tharlak was an acolyte there for three
years, about fifteen years ago.
GM: Ok. You haven't kept in touch with anyone, but chances are good
that someone will still be there who you know. Do you want to
go check it out?
Me: Sure.
And, of course, there are also skill rolls and similar things. I
can't draw a map of Efindel's home town of Tarnath, but Efindel can,
since he has a good "Area Knowledge: Tarnath" skill. I don't know who
the current ruler of the elven kingdom in my old GM's campaign is, but
Efindel would, since he's still alive in that world. And so on.
> Characters are ideas, and don't have data storage
> mechanisms. Avatars do, but characters and avatars aren't the same
> thing, and people don't roleplay avatars. They roleplay characters
> by using avatars (witness that many people play the character
> Gandalf, using many different avatars).
Characters do indeed have data storage mechanisms -- the memories of
people and notes on paper. Further, I'd like to note that the
distinction between "character" and "avatar" that you're making is not
one that I recognize -- from my point of view, a character with a
different "avatar" is not the same character. It is, at most, a new
character modeled after an existing character. (Now, loosely, we may
speak of it as being "the same character". However, that's no more
true than, say, saying that two different versions of an operating
system are "the same operating system". They may have a lot of things
in common, but they are not *exactly* the same operating system. We
just call them "the same" as a matter of convenience.)
Thus, from my point of view, there are many different characters named
Gandalf. They all have points of similarity, but they are different
characters.
> So, I guess what I'm asking is simply, if your character knows
> something, where is that knowledge stored and by what mechanism does
> your character access it?
That knowledge is distributed in several places. My character
accesses it through the meat-based computers that "run" my character
-- myself, other players, and the GM.
To go over into analogy for a second: characters are roles in a game,
and are like roles in other situations. Here at work, for example,
someone in a meeting might ask, "How will we set that up?" and someone
else might answer, "We'll ask Brian. He's done it before for us."
They don't mean by that statement that Brian himself knows how to do
it. It might be that one of the three people that work for Brian
knows how to do it. It might be that someone who works in the same
group with Brian knows how to do it, and Brian can be used as a
contact point to reach that person. Or it might be that Brian himself
can do it, but he'll have to look in a book that he has to get the
details of how to do it.
They're really not talking about Brian the person, but about a role
Brian plays. Indeed, if the setting up requires special privileges
that went with a position Brian no longer has, or was done before by
Brian asking someone who worked with him but is no longer there, then
it's quite possible that Brian "used to be able to do it, but can't
any more".
In the same way, my character in a game is not just something I know
and can do -- it's a role I play. Separate me from my notes about my
character, and I'll lose a lot of my character's knowledge. Change my
character's stats -- my avatar, to use the terminology Matt used
above -- and what my character knows may change, even though *I*
haven't changed in any way.
--
Travis Casey
efindel@earthlink.net - What's Important in a Driver? Jonathan Ross
- Everquest player survey with interesting points Olof Ekström
- Myth II Game server has gone open source Frank Crowell
- Question about threads. Anderson, David
- Question about threads. J C Lawrence
- Question about threads. Nathan F. Yospe
- Question about threads. Sean K
- Question about threads. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Question about threads. Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH : MUD game on a multi agent system Cyril MudDev
- TECH : MUD game on a multi agent system Marc Bowden
- TECH : MUD game on a multi agent system John Robert Arras
- TECH : MUD game on a multi agent system Robert Zubek
- Using the survey Info to make real factual argument WAS: Everquest player survey with interesting points Sasha Hart
- [BIZ] Selling Sex, Power, and Prestige Dave Kennerly
- [BIZ] Selling Sex, Power, and Prestige Sasha Hart
- Mob (NPC) behavior William Murdick
- Mob (NPC) behavior Freeman, Jeff
- Mob (NPC) behavior Valerio Santinelli
- Mob (NPC) behavior Sean K
- Mob (NPC) behavior Sasha Hart
- Mob (NPC) behavior J C Lawrence
- Mob (NPC) behavior Kevin Reid
- Mob (NPC) behavior Mike Povoski
- Mob (NPC) behavior Sasha Hart
- [TECH] Event Queue System the_sage2000@juno.com
- [TECH] Event Queue System Lars Duening
- [TECH] Event Queue System J C Lawrence
- [TECH] Event Queue System Phillip Lenhardt
- [TECH] Event Queue System Lars Duening
- [TECH] Event Queue System Blane Bramble
- [TECH] Event Queue System John Robert Arras
- [TECH] Event Queue System Kwon Ekstrom
- [TECH] Event Queue System Jon Leonard
- Immersion lawsuit Frank Crowell
- Spouse play (was Using the survey Info to make real Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Spouse play (was Using the survey Info to make real Lars Duening
- RP definitions J C Lawrence
- roleplaying Matt Mihaly
- Girl's Perspective (was: Boys and Girls) Katy Morris
- Girl's Perspective (was: Boys and Girls) Paul Schwanz
- Girl's Perspective (was: Boys and Girls) Katy Anderson {Morris}
- Girl's Perspective (was: Boys and Girls) Amanda Walker
- Spouse play Sasha Hart
- Student Interview Steve Wilson
- Statistics (was: Girl appeal (was: Boys and Girls)) Sasha Hart
- "Advanced" use of virtual worlds? (MMORPGs & MUDs) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- I 0Wn Y0o, d00d (Latest 'Biting The Hand' column at Skotos) Christopher Allen
- Online Worlds Timeline Update Koster, Raph
- Online Worlds Timeline Update Richard A. Bartle
- Online Worlds Timeline Update Christopher Allen
- Online Worlds Timeline Update Travis Casey
- Online Worlds Timeline Update Jeff Freeman
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Frank Crowell
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Eric Rhea
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Frank Crowell
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators bruce@cubik.org
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Frank Crowell
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Frank Crowell
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Frank Crowell
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Jon Lambert
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Travis Nixon
- DCMA -- another weapon in the fight against Emulators Frank Crowell
- [TECH] Peer-to-peer downloads for MMO games Olof Ekstrom
- [TECH] Peer-to-peer downloads for MMO games Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [TECH] Peer-to-peer downloads for MMO games Oliver Jowett
- [TECH] Peer-to-peer downloads for MMO games Jon Leonard
- character longevity statistics Val Trullinger
- MajorMUD recollections. Online Worlds Timeline Update Patrick Mahle
- MajorMUD and other BBS MUDs (was: Online Worlds Timeline Update) Scott Jennings
- DaoC postmortem at Gamasutra Azeraab
- DaoC postmortem at Gamasutra Buddy Grizzard
- DaoC postmortem at Gamasutra Dave Rickey
- DaoC postmortem at Gamasutra Marc Bowden
- DaoC postmortem at Gamasutra Scott Jennings
- DaoC postmortem at Gamasutra Vincent Archer
- DaoC postmortem at Gamasutra Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- DaoC postmortem at Gamasutra Buddy Grizzard
- Skotos TT& Christopher Allen