February 2001
- Rogue-Like Mud? Ron Moore
- Issues of Copyright (was Ebay bans character selling) geoffrey@yorku.ca
- brazil the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Dogma 2001 Frank Crowell
- Dogma 2001 David Turner
- FW: Article on Global Verbs & Bulk Bug Christopher Allen
- Slightly extreme reaction to IP and auction Frank Crowell
- Slightly extreme reaction to IP and auction Greg Underwood
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- bandwidth the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Is immersipresense going to make a come back? Frank Crowell
- New Scientist Article... Eric Rhea
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- New Scientist Article... rayzam
- volunteers the_logos@www.achaea.com
- volunteers Timothy Dang
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- volunteers the_logos@www.achaea.com
- volunteers Timothy Dang
- The Aedon rule system (was: FW: Article on Global Verbs & Bulk Bug) Federico Di Gregorio
- Content is Not King (from First Monday) Bruce
- [sweng-gamedev] BYOND game development system (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [sweng-gamedev] BYOND game development system (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Medievia interview Koster, Raph
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- Medievia interview Koster, Raph
- Medievia interview Joe O'Connor
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- FW: Article on Data Inheritance Christopher Allen
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- job opportunities Koster, Raph
- Those (in)famous EQ stories bubba@bubba.mud
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- Room-based vs. Coordinate based[Was semi-graphical muds] Ben Chambers
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- Roundtable status, changes, and future. J C Lawrence
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- MMORPGs: Pointers to System Specs? Lars Duening
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- Shameless Plug. SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
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- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #249 - 28 msgs Dr. Cat
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- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #249 - 28 msgs the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Job search Dr. Cat
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- A new MUD-standard Ben Chambers
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- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Brian Hook
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- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Travis Nixon
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- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Travis Casey
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Vincent Archer
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) msew
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Brian Hook
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- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") Marian Griffith
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- Teaching ethics in MUDs Tess Lowe
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- GoPers are ants at RP picnics!... was Pay for Play(or commercial rolecall) Jon Lambert
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- (no subject) msew
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- Myn ynd Wymyn (was Teaching ethics in MUDs) Ananda Dawnsinger
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- New Bartle article the_logos@www.achaea.com
On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Brian Hook wrote:
> At 06:03 PM 3/8/01 +0000, matt wrote:
>> Yes, it's quite lame. I remember a thread here a year or so back
>> that just made me sick. It wasn't just a thread about the thief
>> class in your game. It was a thread about how to make one specific
>> thief ability work better. The implicit assumption being that we
>> all have thieves and that we've all ripped off our thieves from
>> D&D.
> For an adventure oriented RPG, the archetypes make sense for at
> least two reasons: familiarity, and the more scientific "permutation
> of ability axes".
Familiarty is a reason. The other one is just group think.
> If you were to define your basic types of characters, irrespective
> of the names or the specific abilities, you would often end up with
> a list like:
> - melee combatant: monks, warriors, brawlers - non-melee
> combatant: archers, snipers, magic users - healer/non-combatant:
> shaman (optional) - stealth (optional)
Heh. Why do you think this is? It's because of a general unwillingness
to think outside the box.
> Then you have variants on the above based on hybrids and more
> detailed restrictions that are irrespective of the archetypes.
> Effectively an archer and a mage are the same thing, with just a
> minor detail in what their specific weapon is. A druid and a wizard
> in EQ are the same basic archetype with the contrived difference of
> "nature" vs. "magic" and damage-over-time vs. direct damage. In
> PSO, they whittle it down to three archetypes: caster, melee and
> ranged weapon. Buffers/healers aren't represented, and neither are
> sneakers. Choose your way of killing and be happy =)
A mage and an archer are the same because you've made them the
same. Achaea's mages are nothing like archers, for instance.
> There's nothing wrong with these archetypes, because for most combat
> oriented games that's what it's going to break down to regardless of
> genre. Some RPGs will separate out physical combatants into melee
> and ranged; and the non-combatant classes will have a variety of
> different flavors, from priests to tinkerers to engineers, etc. But
> in the end, they kind of do the same things because combat mechanics
> dictate it. And whether you want to use classes or skills, it still
> ends up being the same.
Of course it's going to be that way for most combat oriented
games. That's exactly what I'm complaining about. And YOUR combat
mechanics define it (your meaning whoever is designing whatever world
one would refer to). "Combat" does not define it. For instance, aside
from our massively complicated (and completely different to the way
AD&D combat works) we have a sub-combat system available to telepaths
called psychic combat. It's a reasonably simple (7 things you can do)
expansion on the principle of rock-paper-scissors. It's got nothing to
do with the categories you listed above. Most of our combat
doesn't. If your world's combat does, it's because you choose to
follow the leader. I'm sorry if that's offensive, but it's true.
Listen, my major objection is the same objection I have to most
mainstream movies. They are too formulaic. Everything borrows, and
it's a spectrum from original to formula to straight-out copy, but I
prefer things tilted more towards the original than towards formulaic
or copy. The creators of Everquest are obviously enormously talented
in terms of meeting the desires of large groups of people.
> For non-combat-oriented games, things like diplomats, bards,
> etc. can make a lot of sense.
Or for games that have combat AND political systems!
> I guess my point isn't that these archetypes aren't tired -- because
> they are -- but sometimes the archetypes are reached through a
> thought process that isn't directly derivative. In my own
> experience I don't say "What'll we call our ranger class?", instead
> I'll say "What about a ranged combatant?" which often ends up
> becoming the traditional ranger/sniper/archer. It's an axis of
> differentiation, and there are finite axes of finite length if
> you're constrained to being combat oriented.
Well, I'd have to disagree. I think the only limits are the limits of
one's imagination.
--matt - New Bartle article Brian Hook
- New Bartle article the_logos@www.achaea.com
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- realism and unrealism Marian Griffith
- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Brian Hook
- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) S. Patrick Gallaty
- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Brian Hook
- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Brian Hook
- Damaging items was New Bartle article msew
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Brian Hook
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Travis Casey
- Damaging items was New Bartle article John Buehler
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Travis Casey
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Marian Griffith
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #255 - 27 msgs Dr. Cat
- Distributed Processing John Buehler
- Distributed Processing Gaffney, Jeremy
- Distributed Processing John Buehler
- Distributed Processing Vincent Archer
- Distributed Processing Timothy Dang
- Distributed Processing Adam Martin
- Distributed Processing shren
- Distributed Processing Gaffney, Jeremy
- Quests + No Spoils (was: Interesting EQ rant) Corey Crawford
- Quests + No Spoils (was: Interesting EQ rant) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Where's The Line Drawn Kyndig
- Where's The Line Drawn KaVir@dial.pipex.com
- Where's The Line Drawn Frank Crowell
- Multiple Character Races John Buehler
- Multiple Character Races Brian Hook
- Multiple Character Races Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Multiple Character Races John Buehler
- Multiple Character Races Koster, Raph
- Multiple Character Races John Buehler
- Multiple Character Races ghovs
- Multiple Character Races the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Multiple Character Races Michael Tresca
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Vincent Archer
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Zak Jarvis
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Koster, Raph
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Koster, Raph
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Freeman, Jeff
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Jeff Freeman
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) shren
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Freeman, Jeff
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Jon Lambert
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Nixon
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) F. Randall Farmer
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Nathan F.Yospe
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) J. Coleman
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Koster, Raph
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Kevin Littlejohn
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) J. Coleman
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Freeman, Jeff
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Brian Hook
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) shren
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Kevin Littlejohn
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Kevin Littlejohn
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Adam Martin
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Vincent Archer
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) holding99@mindspring.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) david.l.smith@home.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) holding99@mindspring.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Nathan F.Yospe
- Balance was Damaging items was New Bartle artic le Palacio, Ryan
- License Laws was Where's The Line Drawn Èric Rhéa
- License Laws was Where's The Line Drawn Frank Crowell
- Scripting Ben Chambers