February 2001
- Rogue-Like Mud? Ron Moore
- Issues of Copyright (was Ebay bans character selling) geoffrey@yorku.ca
- brazil the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Dogma 2001 Frank Crowell
- Dogma 2001 David Turner
- FW: Article on Global Verbs & Bulk Bug Christopher Allen
- Slightly extreme reaction to IP and auction Frank Crowell
- Slightly extreme reaction to IP and auction Greg Underwood
- Slightly extreme reaction to IP and auction the_logos@www.achaea.com
- bandwidth the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Is immersipresense going to make a come back? Frank Crowell
- New Scientist Article... Eric Rhea
- New Scientist Article... Alistair Milne
- New Scientist Article... rayzam
- New Scientist Article... Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- New Scientist Article... rayzam
- volunteers the_logos@www.achaea.com
- volunteers Timothy Dang
- volunteers Jon Morrow
- volunteers the_logos@www.achaea.com
- volunteers Timothy Dang
- The Aedon rule system (was: FW: Article on Global Verbs & Bulk Bug) Federico Di Gregorio
- Content is Not King (from First Monday) Bruce
- [sweng-gamedev] BYOND game development system (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [sweng-gamedev] BYOND game development system (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Medievia interview Koster, Raph
- Medievia interview Alex
- Medievia interview Madman Across the Water
- Medievia interview Koster, Raph
- Medievia interview Joe O'Connor
- Medievia interview pyrographer@comcast.net
- Medievia interview J C Lawrence
- FW: Article on Data Inheritance Christopher Allen
- FW: Article on Data Inheritance Kevin Littlejohn
- job opportunities Koster, Raph
- Those (in)famous EQ stories bubba@bubba.mud
- Writing articles (was: FW: Article on Data Inheritance) Bruce
- Writing articles (was: FW: Article on Data Inheritance) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Room-based vs. Coordinate based[Was semi-graphical muds] Ben Chambers
- Room-based vs. Coordinate based[Was semi-graphical muds] Warren Powell
- Room-based vs. Coordinate based[Was semi-graphical muds] the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Room-based vs. Coordinate based[Was semi-graphical muds] J C Lawrence
- Modular Design Issues RFC Ryan Rhodes
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- Modular Design Issues RFC Greg Lewis
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- Modular Design Issues RFC Ryan Rhodes
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- Party at DundraCon Christopher Allen
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #246 - 6 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #246 - 6 msgs the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Roundtable status, changes, and future. J C Lawrence
- Roundtable status, changes, and future. J C Lawrence
- Persistent Worlds Ryan Rhodes
- Persistent Worlds J C Lawrence
- Persistent Worlds Hulbert, Leland
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- Persistent Worlds J C Lawrence
- Persistent Worlds John Buehler
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- Persistent Worlds John Buehler
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- Persistent Worlds John Buehler
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- Persistent Worlds Travis Casey
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- Persistent Worlds Jon Lambert
- Persistent Worlds Ryan Rhodes
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- Persistent Worlds J C Lawrence
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- Persistent Worlds J C Lawrence
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- Persistent Worlds msew
- Persistent Worlds rayzam
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- Persistent Worlds rayzam
- Persistent Worlds Travis Casey
- Persistent Worlds John Buehler
- Persistent Worlds the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Persistent Worlds John Buehler
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- Persistent Worlds Nathan F.Yospe
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- Persistent Worlds the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Persistent Worlds Travis Casey
- Persistent Worlds the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Persistent Worlds Travis Casey
- Persistent Worlds Corey Crawford
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- Persistent Worlds Marian Griffith
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- Persistent Worlds J C Lawrence
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- MMORPGs: Pointers to System Specs? Lars Duening
- MMORPGs: Pointers to System Specs? Jake Song
- Shameless Plug. SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
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- enforced roleplaying the_logos@www.achaea.com
- enforced roleplaying Sanvean
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- Real Life Consequences Corey Crawford
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- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #249 - 28 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #249 - 28 msgs the_logos@www.achaea.com
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #249 - 28 msgs the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Job search Dr. Cat
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Ryan Rhodes
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) J C Lawrence
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Marc Bowden
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Jeff Freeman
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Ryan Rhodes
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Dave Rickey
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Jeff Freeman
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Ananda Dawnsinger
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Dave Rickey
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Dave Rickey
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) S. Patrick Gallaty
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Jeff Freeman
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Jon Lambert
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) J C Lawrence
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Jon Morrow
- A new MUD-standard Ben Chambers
- A new MUD-standard Adam Casbarian
- A new MUD-standard Ben Chambers
- A new MUD-standard Christopher Allen
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- A new MUD-standard Bruce
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- A new MUD-standard Frank Crowell
- Community (was: Semi Graphical Muds) Marian Griffith
- Defining a community Klyde Beattie
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- Defining a community Jeff Freeman
- Defining a community Dave Rickey
- Defining a community Mark Watson
- Defining a community Koster, Raph
- Defining a community Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) msew
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) msew
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Vincent Archer
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) msew
At 10:43 02/22/2001 +0100, Vincent Archer wrote:
>According to msew:
> > hard to understand why the console games can make the uber boss mob at
> > the end of the level and have it balanced, yet the mmp world can't :(
>
> Because, basically, in the console game, you have two premises:
>
> 1) the end boss is the challenge. The rest is cakewalk
> 2) you know exactly whose forces are arrayed and can scale the strength
> of the boss.
I disagree. you know the min and the max force that can be arrayed
against you. Based on what the character does during that lvl
(powerups, extra lives based on score, weapons picked up, etc etc) and
what possible maximal and minimal state they could have on entering
that level. you have to make the mob on AVERAGE a tough battle for
all such states. ie a totally buffed guy will have an easier time
killing the boss than a unbuffed guy and you don't want it impossible
for the people that just suck to enter the level with min state and
finish that level with min state for that level.
> > quick dirty example:
> >
> > uber mob is balanced for 10 lvl 50 characters.
> >
> > uber mob sees that there are 40 characters.
> >
> > uber mob /shouts to the zone: "I see you have brought a host against
> > me! i shall fight fire with fire! Minions to me!"
> That's where it breaks down. A good example is Cazic Thule in
> Everquest. He does exactly this. Of course, the host has already
> killed about every single mob in the area, so there's none to
> summon. You need to create new ones - fiction breaks down :)
you can NOT kill CT without killing basically everything on PoF. (ie
that is the purpose of that zone to kill all the mobs and then whack
CT) Well you couldn't before the expansions, you might be able to kill
some % of PoF now and then surgical strike and then CR all your
chanters and kiters afterwards.
why does fiction break down? CT is the avatar of a GOD. I would hope
that this being can summon some compatriots to help him, after all he
can DT people from across the zone.
People are too stuck on: Well we killed all the pops where it is 100%
safe. or perhaps the game design is forcing them in that direction.
> The added difficulty, in a large multiplayer world is: how does the
> boss determine that there are 40 characters *against* him? Maybe
> there's a group of 5 who are there for a different reason. Or you
> have two separate group of 20, on who was readying itself to rush,
> and one who just entered the dungeon.
> And the first group wonder afterward why they got pounded into the
> ground so fast :)
This is a technical and statistical issue and therefore 100% solvable.
Even in EQ, they have "portions" of the zone that the game engine
knows about (ie the zone in areas in Velious).
It is not hard to map out regions of the zones and assign them labels.
if N PCs are in ubermob area:
if N > designed difficulty:
increase difficulty up to some maximal difficulty
if ubermob was attacked in last N seconds:
if number of PCs in ubermob area just increased by N:
I am being wave attacked, call for minions to attack the camped
people
etc etc etc
100% the PCs are going to out think what ever AI/strategy you have
decided. But what occurs now is: mob needs 10 people to kill it with
50% chance. uberguild says: "ok gang all 50 of us will be able to
rock it no prob" and they go and crush it.
when the AI in EQ is changed and we all get beaten down after N
complete slaughterings of some ubermob, it is a breath of fresh air in
the repetitious: kill loot tp to next zone kill loot tp to next zone
kill loot.
I guess the generalized question is:
how does one deal with this fact:
for any encounter you design, at some difficulty level that takes a
certain amount of power to overcome, the players will always just
bring more power with them.
I see:
-better AI
-dynamically altering the power of the mob to better match the
designer's specified level of difficulty
-let players crush the mobs easily
-"artificially?" limit the amount of power they can bring (ie the
console games probably know the max amount of power you can have
so they can make certain on average the mob meets the difficulty
lvl desired)
-statically update the mob so it is stronger (thus entering the
arms race with the players and eventually setting the lower bound
on the killability of that mob to that of the best players in the
game skill/power level (ie only the best guild on the server can
kill the mob))
-take mob out of the game (this occurred on sojourn when the
guild I was in was able to kill tiamat 100% of the time with
like 1-2 losses if that) (usually occurs when all else has
failed to stop the players)
-remove any incentive for killing the mob by the uber people (ie
if we can't stop the best guilds from just punishing this poor
mob day in and day out, make it so they don't want to)
as some options. what others did I miss?
msew - "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Brian Hook
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) John Buehler
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Brian Hook
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) John Buehler
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Travis Nixon
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Koster, Raph
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Travis Casey
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Vincent Archer
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) msew
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Brian Hook
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Dave Rickey
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) msew
- MUD Schools Ben Chambers
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- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") David Bennett
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- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") J C Lawrence
- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") rayzam
- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") Travis Nixon
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- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") Marian Griffith
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- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") the_logos@www.achaea.com
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- Item Distribution in Areas Jim S
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- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
- Myn ynd Wymyn (was Teaching ethics in MUDs) Adam Casbarian
- Myn ynd Wymyn (was Teaching ethics in MUDs) Willowreed@aol.com
- Yamauchi Puts the Industry In Its Place msew
- Item drain was Item Distribution in Areas Brian Hook
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #255 - 27 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #255 - 27 msgs John Buehler
- realism and unrealism Travis Casey
- realism and unrealism Federico Di Gregorio
- realism and unrealism Marian Griffith
- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Brian Hook
- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) S. Patrick Gallaty
- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Brian Hook
- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Brian Hook
- Damaging items was New Bartle article msew
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Brian Hook
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Travis Casey
- Damaging items was New Bartle article John Buehler
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Travis Casey
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Marian Griffith
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #255 - 27 msgs Dr. Cat
- Distributed Processing John Buehler
- Distributed Processing Gaffney, Jeremy
- Distributed Processing John Buehler
- Distributed Processing Vincent Archer
- Distributed Processing Timothy Dang
- Distributed Processing Adam Martin
- Distributed Processing shren
- Distributed Processing Gaffney, Jeremy
- Quests + No Spoils (was: Interesting EQ rant) Corey Crawford
- Quests + No Spoils (was: Interesting EQ rant) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Where's The Line Drawn Kyndig
- Where's The Line Drawn KaVir@dial.pipex.com
- Where's The Line Drawn Frank Crowell
- Multiple Character Races John Buehler
- Multiple Character Races Brian Hook
- Multiple Character Races Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Multiple Character Races John Buehler
- Multiple Character Races Koster, Raph
- Multiple Character Races John Buehler
- Multiple Character Races ghovs
- Multiple Character Races the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Multiple Character Races Michael Tresca
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Vincent Archer
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Zak Jarvis
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Koster, Raph
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Koster, Raph
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Freeman, Jeff
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Jeff Freeman
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) shren
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Freeman, Jeff
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Jon Lambert
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Nixon
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) F. Randall Farmer
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Nathan F.Yospe
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) J. Coleman
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Koster, Raph
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Kevin Littlejohn
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) J. Coleman
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Freeman, Jeff
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Brian Hook
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) shren
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Kevin Littlejohn
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Kevin Littlejohn
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Adam Martin
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Vincent Archer
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) holding99@mindspring.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) david.l.smith@home.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) holding99@mindspring.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Nathan F.Yospe
- Balance was Damaging items was New Bartle artic le Palacio, Ryan
- License Laws was Where's The Line Drawn Èric Rhéa
- License Laws was Where's The Line Drawn Frank Crowell
- Scripting Ben Chambers