February 2001
- Rogue-Like Mud? Ron Moore
- Issues of Copyright (was Ebay bans character selling) geoffrey@yorku.ca
- brazil the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Dogma 2001 Frank Crowell
- Dogma 2001 David Turner
- FW: Article on Global Verbs & Bulk Bug Christopher Allen
- Slightly extreme reaction to IP and auction Frank Crowell
- Slightly extreme reaction to IP and auction Greg Underwood
- Slightly extreme reaction to IP and auction the_logos@www.achaea.com
- bandwidth the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Is immersipresense going to make a come back? Frank Crowell
- New Scientist Article... Eric Rhea
- New Scientist Article... Alistair Milne
- New Scientist Article... rayzam
- New Scientist Article... Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- New Scientist Article... rayzam
- volunteers the_logos@www.achaea.com
- volunteers Timothy Dang
- volunteers Jon Morrow
- volunteers the_logos@www.achaea.com
- volunteers Timothy Dang
- The Aedon rule system (was: FW: Article on Global Verbs & Bulk Bug) Federico Di Gregorio
- Content is Not King (from First Monday) Bruce
- [sweng-gamedev] BYOND game development system (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [sweng-gamedev] BYOND game development system (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Medievia interview Koster, Raph
- Medievia interview Alex
- Medievia interview Madman Across the Water
- Medievia interview Koster, Raph
- Medievia interview Joe O'Connor
- Medievia interview pyrographer@comcast.net
- Medievia interview J C Lawrence
- FW: Article on Data Inheritance Christopher Allen
- FW: Article on Data Inheritance Kevin Littlejohn
- job opportunities Koster, Raph
- Those (in)famous EQ stories bubba@bubba.mud
- Writing articles (was: FW: Article on Data Inheritance) Bruce
- Writing articles (was: FW: Article on Data Inheritance) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Room-based vs. Coordinate based[Was semi-graphical muds] Ben Chambers
- Room-based vs. Coordinate based[Was semi-graphical muds] Warren Powell
- Room-based vs. Coordinate based[Was semi-graphical muds] the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Room-based vs. Coordinate based[Was semi-graphical muds] J C Lawrence
- Modular Design Issues RFC Ryan Rhodes
- Modular Design Issues RFC Russ Lewis
- Modular Design Issues RFC Ryan Rhodes
- Modular Design Issues RFC J C Lawrence
- Modular Design Issues RFC Bruce
- Modular Design Issues RFC J C Lawrence
- Modular Design Issues RFC Ryan Rhodes
- Modular Design Issues RFC J C Lawrence
- Modular Design Issues RFC Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Modular Design Issues RFC Greg Lewis
- Modular Design Issues RFC Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Modular Design Issues RFC Ben Chambers
- Modular Design Issues RFC Ryan Rhodes
- Modular Design Issues RFC J C Lawrence
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- Modular Design Issues RFC Scion Altera
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- Modular Design Issues RFC Kwon Ekstrom
- Modular Design Issues RFC Ryan Rhodes
- Modular Design Issues RFC Kwon Ekstrom
- Modular Design Issues RFC Ryan Rhodes
- Modular Design Issues RFC Kwon Ekstrom
- Modular Design Issues RFC Scion Altera
- Modular Design Issues RFC Jo Dillon
- Modular Design Issues RFC J C Lawrence
- Party at DundraCon Christopher Allen
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #246 - 6 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #246 - 6 msgs the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Roundtable status, changes, and future. J C Lawrence
- Roundtable status, changes, and future. J C Lawrence
- Persistent Worlds Ryan Rhodes
- Persistent Worlds J C Lawrence
- Persistent Worlds Hulbert, Leland
- Persistent Worlds J C Lawrence
- Persistent Worlds John Buehler
- Persistent Worlds J C Lawrence
- Persistent Worlds John Buehler
- Persistent Worlds the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Persistent Worlds John Buehler
- Persistent Worlds the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Persistent Worlds John Buehler
- Persistent Worlds the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Persistent Worlds Travis Casey
- Persistent Worlds the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Persistent Worlds Scion Altera
- Persistent Worlds John Buehler
- Persistent Worlds J C Lawrence
- Persistent Worlds the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Persistent Worlds J C Lawrence
- Persistent Worlds the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Persistent Worlds Travis Casey
- Persistent Worlds Hulbert, Leland
- Persistent Worlds Jon Lambert
- Persistent Worlds Ryan Rhodes
- Persistent Worlds Jon Lambert
- Persistent Worlds Ryan Rhodes
- Persistent Worlds Jon Lambert
- Persistent Worlds Ryan Rhodes
- Persistent Worlds J C Lawrence
- Persistent Worlds Jon Lambert
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- Persistent Worlds Miroslav Silovic
- Persistent Worlds Bruce
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- Persistent Worlds Phillip Lenhardt
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- Persistent Worlds msew
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- Persistent Worlds the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Persistent Worlds John Buehler
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- Persistent Worlds Travis Casey
Monday, February 19, 2001, 12:55:45 AM, John Buehler <johnbue@msn.com> wrote:
>> Travis Casey
>> I think a better way to put this is that a gameworld should be
>> "self-healing". Backstory can be relevant to a game without
>> problems, but if there is no way to generate new challenges for
>> characters when old ones are overcome, or to continue the game if a
>> particular NPC or item is lost, then the game has not been
>> well-designed.
> I agree that the story must adapt as circumstances dictate. I've
> suggested that there be story planners for game worlds who are
> responsible for this very thing. To suggest that the game must
> adapt implies to me that the story can be affected by the players,
> but only to a certain extent. If the players can actually control
> the story line (assassinate all the ambassadors), then we get into a
> case of the game company fighting to keep control of its own world.
Sorry -- I didn't mean to imply that. There's two ways for the game
world to adapt. The first is, as you say, to construct things so that
there are limits to how much the players can affect the story. The
second is to think about different ways in which the story could be
derailed, and what *new* storylines might arise from those.
To give a concrete example, let's take the old "orcs in the hills"
setup. You *could* set things up so that the players can't ever
completely wipe out the orcs -- e.g., using a "hidden population" of
orcs, from which the orcs will rebuild.
Alternatively, however, you could plan ahead by asking yourself --
what's going to happen if the players wipe out the orcs? Is there
some other menace in the hills which the orcs have been keeping in
check? Could someone else come along and decide that the orc caverns
look like a nice place to live now? Without the orcs holding the
hills, will the local population expand into the hills, and if they
do, what changes in the local area will come about because of that?
The first method is relatively easy, but, IMHO, unsatisfying. The
second method requires story planners (and ones who can fairly quickly
adapt, at that), but, again IMHO, would make for a more satisfying,
more real-feeling world.
> To return to the topic of backstory, however, I was attempting to
> point out that having backstory really isn't all that useful to
> players. This is a bit like having documentation for software.
> Nobody reads the stuff, and software needs to be easy to use anyway,
> so why bother except with reference information? I believe
> backstory fits the same mold. Having a backstory written down is
> handy for those who like fiction, but it's pretty much a non-issue
> for the mainstream player, who just hops into the world and plays.
> In their case, only the bits and pieces of the world's activity that
> they witness or people tell them about will be of any interest at
> all.
Ok -- I see the point of disagreement now. We're defining "backstory"
in two different ways. To me, backstory is what happened before to
set up the current situation. Any real-seeming world *has* to have
this sort of backstory to make any sense. It need not be written out
in the form of a story -- indeed, I agree that it's generally better
not to do so.
So, for example, if the players come across a letter from Lord X to
Lady Y that indicates that they used to be secret lovers, but Lady Y
broke things off and *that's* why Lord X is out to get Lord Y, to me,
that's backstory. It's just backstory that's revealed in the course
of the game, rather than as a story on a web page somewhere.
(In the same way, good movies, TV shows, and books tend to reveal
backstory in the course of what's happening rather than in long blocks
of exposition. The old writer's adage is "show, don't tell". Now,
the writer may have portions of the backstory written out somewhere,
but it doesn't have to be presented to the reader/viewer that way.)
I've just been re-reading Zelazny's _Chronicles of Amber_, so I'm
going to draw an example from there. We're told that the protagonist,
Corwin, once ruled a land called Avalon. We're shown, through the
reactions of others, that his reign there was probably quite harsh.
However, at no point are we actually given a flashback to Corwin's
days in Avalon, or the actual text of any legend or history of that
time to read -- everything we know about Corwin and Avalon comes from
a few comments by Corwin (the story is told in first person, from his
point of view) and what other characters say and do in the present.
Another example is Herbert's _Dune_. There's a huge amount of
backstory there, but at no point are we simply given a large chunk of
text about, say, the Butlerian Jihad, the Bene Gesserit breeding
program, or even the Atriedes-Harkonnen feud. Instead, almost
everything comes out through the thoughts, words, and actions of the
characters. (There are the little chapter-leading quotes, but many of
them are foreshadowing instead of history, and none of them are long
-- most are no more than three or four sentences.)
That's what I'm talking about when I say "backstory" -- what's
happened before -- the story behind the story, if you will. Nothing
requires that to be given to the players in the form of a story,
however.
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel@earthlink.net>
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) - Persistent Worlds John Buehler
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- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #249 - 28 msgs Dr. Cat
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- New Bartle article Matt Mihaly
- everquest banning sarapis@www.achaea.com
- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
- Myn ynd Wymyn (was Teaching ethics in MUDs) Adam Casbarian
- Myn ynd Wymyn (was Teaching ethics in MUDs) Willowreed@aol.com
- Yamauchi Puts the Industry In Its Place msew
- Item drain was Item Distribution in Areas Brian Hook
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #255 - 27 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #255 - 27 msgs John Buehler
- realism and unrealism Travis Casey
- realism and unrealism Federico Di Gregorio
- realism and unrealism Marian Griffith
- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Brian Hook
- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) S. Patrick Gallaty
- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Brian Hook
- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Brian Hook
- Damaging items was New Bartle article msew
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Brian Hook
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Travis Casey
- Damaging items was New Bartle article John Buehler
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Travis Casey
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Marian Griffith
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #255 - 27 msgs Dr. Cat
- Distributed Processing John Buehler
- Distributed Processing Gaffney, Jeremy
- Distributed Processing John Buehler
- Distributed Processing Vincent Archer
- Distributed Processing Timothy Dang
- Distributed Processing Adam Martin
- Distributed Processing shren
- Distributed Processing Gaffney, Jeremy
- Quests + No Spoils (was: Interesting EQ rant) Corey Crawford
- Quests + No Spoils (was: Interesting EQ rant) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Where's The Line Drawn Kyndig
- Where's The Line Drawn KaVir@dial.pipex.com
- Where's The Line Drawn Frank Crowell
- Multiple Character Races John Buehler
- Multiple Character Races Brian Hook
- Multiple Character Races Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Multiple Character Races John Buehler
- Multiple Character Races Koster, Raph
- Multiple Character Races John Buehler
- Multiple Character Races ghovs
- Multiple Character Races the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Multiple Character Races Michael Tresca
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Vincent Archer
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Zak Jarvis
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Koster, Raph
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Koster, Raph
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Freeman, Jeff
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Jeff Freeman
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) shren
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Freeman, Jeff
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Jon Lambert
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Nixon
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) F. Randall Farmer
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Nathan F.Yospe
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) J. Coleman
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Koster, Raph
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Kevin Littlejohn
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) J. Coleman
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Freeman, Jeff
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Brian Hook
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) shren
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Kevin Littlejohn
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Kevin Littlejohn
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Adam Martin
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Vincent Archer
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) holding99@mindspring.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) david.l.smith@home.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) holding99@mindspring.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Nathan F.Yospe
- Balance was Damaging items was New Bartle artic le Palacio, Ryan
- License Laws was Where's The Line Drawn Èric Rhéa
- License Laws was Where's The Line Drawn Frank Crowell
- Scripting Ben Chambers