February 2001
- Rogue-Like Mud? Ron Moore
- Issues of Copyright (was Ebay bans character selling) geoffrey@yorku.ca
- brazil the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Dogma 2001 Frank Crowell
- Dogma 2001 David Turner
- FW: Article on Global Verbs & Bulk Bug Christopher Allen
- Slightly extreme reaction to IP and auction Frank Crowell
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- Slightly extreme reaction to IP and auction the_logos@www.achaea.com
- bandwidth the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Is immersipresense going to make a come back? Frank Crowell
- New Scientist Article... Eric Rhea
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- New Scientist Article... rayzam
- volunteers the_logos@www.achaea.com
- volunteers Timothy Dang
- volunteers Jon Morrow
- volunteers the_logos@www.achaea.com
- volunteers Timothy Dang
- The Aedon rule system (was: FW: Article on Global Verbs & Bulk Bug) Federico Di Gregorio
- Content is Not King (from First Monday) Bruce
- [sweng-gamedev] BYOND game development system (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [sweng-gamedev] BYOND game development system (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Medievia interview Koster, Raph
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- Medievia interview Koster, Raph
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- FW: Article on Data Inheritance Christopher Allen
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- job opportunities Koster, Raph
- Those (in)famous EQ stories bubba@bubba.mud
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- Room-based vs. Coordinate based[Was semi-graphical muds] Ben Chambers
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- Modular Design Issues RFC Ryan Rhodes
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- Party at DundraCon Christopher Allen
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #246 - 6 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #246 - 6 msgs the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Roundtable status, changes, and future. J C Lawrence
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- Persistent Worlds Ryan Rhodes
- Persistent Worlds J C Lawrence
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- Persistent Worlds the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Persistent Worlds John Buehler
- Persistent Worlds the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Persistent Worlds John Buehler
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- Persistent Worlds Ryan Rhodes
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- Persistent Worlds J C Lawrence
- Persistent Worlds John Buehler
- Persistent Worlds J C Lawrence
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- Persistent Worlds msew
- Persistent Worlds rayzam
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- Persistent Worlds rayzam
- Persistent Worlds Travis Casey
- Persistent Worlds John Buehler
- Persistent Worlds the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Persistent Worlds John Buehler
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- Persistent Worlds the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Persistent Worlds Travis Casey
- Persistent Worlds the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Persistent Worlds Travis Casey
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- Persistent Worlds Marian Griffith
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- MMORPGs: Pointers to System Specs? Lars Duening
- MMORPGs: Pointers to System Specs? Jake Song
- Shameless Plug. SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
- Shameless Plug. Travis Casey
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- Shameless Plug. SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
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- enforced roleplaying the_logos@www.achaea.com
- enforced roleplaying Sanvean
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- enforced roleplaying Mark Watson
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- Real Life Consequences Corey Crawford
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- Real Life Consequences John Buehler
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- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #249 - 28 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #249 - 28 msgs the_logos@www.achaea.com
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #249 - 28 msgs the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Job search Dr. Cat
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Ryan Rhodes
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) J C Lawrence
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Marc Bowden
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Jeff Freeman
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Ryan Rhodes
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- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Dave Rickey
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Jeff Freeman
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Ananda Dawnsinger
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Dave Rickey
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Dave Rickey
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) S. Patrick Gallaty
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Jeff Freeman
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Jon Lambert
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) J C Lawrence
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Pay for Play (or Commercial Rolecall) Jon Morrow
- A new MUD-standard Ben Chambers
- A new MUD-standard Adam Casbarian
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- A new MUD-standard Kwon Ekstrom
- A new MUD-standard Bruce
- A new MUD-standard Kevin Littlejohn
- A new MUD-standard Kwon Ekstrom
- A new MUD-standard Ben Chambers
- A new MUD-standard Kwon Ekstrom
- A new MUD-standard Ben Chambers
- A new MUD-standard Kwon Ekstrom
- A new MUD-standard Kevin Littlejohn
- A new MUD-standard Ben Chambers
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- A new MUD-standard the_logos@www.achaea.com
- A new MUD-standard Frank Crowell
- Community (was: Semi Graphical Muds) Marian Griffith
- Defining a community Klyde Beattie
- Defining a community Dave Rickey
- Defining a community Jeff Freeman
- Defining a community Dave Rickey
- Defining a community Mark Watson
- Defining a community Koster, Raph
- Defining a community Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) msew
At 15:27 12/11/2000 -0700, Travis Nixon wrote:
> Sorta crossing threads here, and still speaking about Everquest,
> because that's what I've been playing lately, but there was a
> comment in another thread from Brad McQuaid about camping, and how
> they're disappointed that people won't 'do' dungeons. But the fact
> of the matter is, people won't 'do' dungeons because in most cases,
> it's too dangerous, or the reward is nowhere near the risk. And as
> time goes on, it just becomes more and more dangerous, because as
> they're tuning places so that they're a challenge for campers,
> they're completely blowing the dungeon crawlers out of the water.
> It's not just about items. It's about not dying. To 'do' the
> typical dungeon in everquest requires a very well organized group of
> the appropriate classes. Those types of groups really just aren't
> all that common, in my experience.
> But I will say that when you can get one of those groups together,
> the way the EQ team wants you to play dungeons is such an absolute
> blast that I haven't cancelled my account yet, even after being
> thrown out of the Vale. There's a dungeon some friends and I have
> been frequenting lately (Kaesora) that is so much fun it's hard to
> believe it's EQ. But you know what? Without a very well tuned
> group full of members who know how to play their classes well, it's
> suicide. And that's why nobody 'does' dungeons. I would personally
> say that there's already too much of a deterrent keeping players
> away from lethal pursuits. No need to add more, at least not for
> EQ.
The problem with "doing a dungeon" is that there is no point. Why
bother. The fact that you "did it" from start to finish gives you
nothing extra. It is better to sit at a camp and get safe exp and go
for specific item(s).
Further, the only dungeon that is really set up as a dungeon crawl is
Howling Stones. HS explicitly has an uber mob at the end, with uber
loot (Necklace of Superiority aka NOS). Certainly other dungeons have
some big mobs deep in them that you have to move through the dungeon
to get to them (Chardok semi being another) but most of the dungeons
really are just areas with (eerily) clearly defined camping areas.
Check out Seb for a nice example of completely separated portions of
the dungeon where groups basically can not interfere nor even see the
other people in the dungeon.
The fact that every zone in the game quickly gets specific areas named
by the players, and that the players are able to basically hold those
areas indefinitely means that they are camps. Even with the "new"
randomized loot tables, they are still camps. You get to a place in
the dungeon where the set of PCs you have in your group can hold/play
safe and then you just start the slaughtering.
IMO until there is some designing of a dungeons that have some sort of
"boss" at the end and some sort of progressing through the dungeon,
people are going to just find a spot in the dungeon where they are
able to set up shop and kill the mobs indefinitely.
With all of the great console games with the bosses and progressing
through the level to fight the boss, I am pretty surprised that we
have not seen something similar yet. Certainly this means yet more
areas created but isn't that what these worlds are meant to be? A
place where there are literally hundreds of dungeons and warrens and
places to explore and conquer and die in. Sure there can be a couple
of MEGA dungeons that people hang out in and such but in every fantasy
book I have read the heros were never fighting over who gets to camp
the Ghoul Lord and if they could get on the list to join that camp.
:-)
Also there needs to be some "scoring" metric used for telling the
world at large that Bubba that 15th lvl fighter has gone into the
Dungeon Of Doom and killed Gumba the One Eyed Ogre. Whether this is a
Deeds list or some other reward metric it needs to be there.
msew - "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) msew
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Vincent Archer
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) msew
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Brian Hook
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) John Buehler
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Brian Hook
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) John Buehler
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Travis Nixon
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Koster, Raph
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Travis Casey
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Vincent Archer
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) msew
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Brian Hook
- "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?) Dave Rickey
- MUD Schools Ben Chambers
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- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") Tess Lowe
- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") John Buehler
- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") Ananda Dawnsinger
- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") David Bennett
- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") Adam Casbarian
- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") J C Lawrence
- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") rayzam
- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") Travis Nixon
- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") Marian Griffith
- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") John Buehler
- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") Kwon Ekstrom
- Teaching ethics in MUDs (was "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG") the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Teaching ethics in MUDs Tess Lowe
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- Mozilla as a client (was: A new MUD-standard) Bruce
- Mozilla as a client (was: A new MUD-standard) Kwon Ekstrom
- GoPers are ants at RP picnics!... was Pay for Play(or commercial rolecall) Jon Lambert
- Condsiders Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
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- (no subject) msew
- Phantasy Star online article Koster, Raph
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- Phantasy Star online article msew
- Myn ynd Wymyn (was Teaching ethics in MUDs) Ananda Dawnsinger
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- Myn ynd Wymyn (was Teaching ethics in MUDs) Adam Casbarian
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- Item Distribution in Areas Jim S
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- Item Distribution in Areas rayzam
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- Game Developer Conference Proceedings? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
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- everquest banning sarapis@www.achaea.com
- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
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- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) the_logos@www.achaea.com
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- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug) SavantKnowsAll@cs.com
- Myn ynd Wymyn (was Teaching ethics in MUDs) Adam Casbarian
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- Yamauchi Puts the Industry In Its Place msew
- Item drain was Item Distribution in Areas Brian Hook
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #255 - 27 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #255 - 27 msgs John Buehler
- realism and unrealism Travis Casey
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- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Brian Hook
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- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Limiting rewards was Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Brian Hook
- Damaging items was New Bartle article msew
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Brian Hook
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Travis Casey
- Damaging items was New Bartle article John Buehler
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Travis Casey
- Damaging items was New Bartle article Marian Griffith
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #255 - 27 msgs Dr. Cat
- Distributed Processing John Buehler
- Distributed Processing Gaffney, Jeremy
- Distributed Processing John Buehler
- Distributed Processing Vincent Archer
- Distributed Processing Timothy Dang
- Distributed Processing Adam Martin
- Distributed Processing shren
- Distributed Processing Gaffney, Jeremy
- Quests + No Spoils (was: Interesting EQ rant) Corey Crawford
- Quests + No Spoils (was: Interesting EQ rant) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Where's The Line Drawn Kyndig
- Where's The Line Drawn KaVir@dial.pipex.com
- Where's The Line Drawn Frank Crowell
- Multiple Character Races John Buehler
- Multiple Character Races Brian Hook
- Multiple Character Races Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Multiple Character Races John Buehler
- Multiple Character Races Koster, Raph
- Multiple Character Races John Buehler
- Multiple Character Races ghovs
- Multiple Character Races the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Multiple Character Races Michael Tresca
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Vincent Archer
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Zak Jarvis
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Koster, Raph
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Koster, Raph
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Freeman, Jeff
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Jeff Freeman
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) shren
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Freeman, Jeff
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Jon Lambert
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Nixon
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) F. Randall Farmer
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Nathan F.Yospe
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) J. Coleman
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Koster, Raph
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Kevin Littlejohn
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) J. Coleman
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Freeman, Jeff
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Brian Hook
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matt Mihaly
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) shren
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Kevin Littlejohn
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Kevin Littlejohn
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Adam Martin
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Vincent Archer
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) holding99@mindspring.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) david.l.smith@home.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) holding99@mindspring.com
- FW: Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Nathan F.Yospe
- Balance was Damaging items was New Bartle artic le Palacio, Ryan
- License Laws was Where's The Line Drawn Èric Rhéa
- License Laws was Where's The Line Drawn Frank Crowell
- Scripting Ben Chambers