February 1999
- client images Chris Gray
- Question on c++ switch optimization, and parsers in general. Ben Greear
- Question on c++ switch optimization, and parsers in general. Adam Wiggins
- Question on c++ switch optimization, and parsers in general. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Question on c++ switch optimization, and parsers in general. Chris Gray
- Question on c++ switch optimization, and parsers in general. Chris Gray
- Question on c++ switch optimization, and parsers in general. T. Alexander Popiel
- Question on c++ switch optimization, and parsers in general. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Question on c++ switch optimization, and parsers in general. Richard Woolcock
- Question on c++ switch optimization, and parsers in general. Marc Hernandez
- Question on c++ switch optimization, and parsers i Chris Gray
- Question on c++ switch optimization, and parsers i Jon A. Lambert
- Question on c++ switch optimization, and parsers i Chris Gray
- optimizing code diablo@best.com
- optimizing code Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- optimizing code Chris Gray
- code profiling Chris Gray
- World-file parsing and RTTI? The Arrow
- World-file parsing and RTTI? Mark Gritter
- pet peeves diablo@best.com
- pet peeves diablo@best.com
- pet peeves Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- pet peeves Marc Bowden
- pet peeves Richard Woolcock
- pet peeves Koster, Raph
- pet peeves diablo@best.com
- pet peeves Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- pet peeves Kristen Koster
- pet peeves Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- pet peeves Adam Wiggins
- pet peeves Wes Connell
- pet peeves J C Lawrence
- pet peeves Matthew Mihaly
- pet peeves Ling
- pet peeves Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- pet peeves Matthew Mihaly
- pet peeves Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- pet peeves Matthew Mihaly
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Ola Fosheim [iso-8859-1] Grøstad wrote:
> Matthew Mihaly wrote:
>
> > I used to agree with you completely, but JC Lawrence made some really
> > excellent arguments for things that permadeath can bring to a game that
> > pretty much cannot exist without that risk, ie a massively heightened
> > sense of risk (and thus passion) about what you are doing. When the risks
> > are high, so are the passions.
>
> In what way? I don't have much interest in permadeath so I can't speak from my
> own experience on that one, but I know that the risk I feel in PvP is not so
> much a matter of loosing stats as it is a matter of having another player
> exercise their power over my character. I loose stats when dying for a monster,
> no trembling there. Now, facing a sworn enemy which I really hate, yes I shake
> from the tension that comes from the risk of loosing _face_. The risk of being
> humiliated! Similarly, when attacking someone innocent, I tremble from the
> immorality of my act, causing real grief to a real human being, just for the
> sake of staying in character or exercising power. I believe _immersion_ is a
> lot more important than how many levels you loose when you die. Now, if I
> played MUDs like I play shoot'em'ups or Monopoly, then death wouldn't matter
> all that much anyway. Yes, passion might be good, but real passion comes with
> social context, immersion and perceived risk, not necessarily measured risk
> What this means is that perceived risk is not invariant, it depends upon the
> individual player's mentality. (And really, I think there is enough passion in
> immersive MUDs. What are you going to do about lag-death whining? And, isn't
> permadeath likely to increase antisocial behaviour by presenting the
> environment as a truly hostile design?)
Yes, I agree that losing face is a MUCH bigger deal than losing stats. It
is you vs. the other person, not character v. character. However, when
death is such an infrequent thing, as it must be in a viable permadeath
system (Genocide not withstanding), think of how much bigger of a rush you
will get, knowing that if you fight to the death with your opponent,
either you or he is going to lose your character entirely.
I don't think permadeath works in a system where it is possible (and where
it is desirable, due to a lack of "justice"-type measures) to easily kill
someone, however. Nevertheless, in a permadeath system where both death
and murder have huge consequences, I think you'd end up with some quite
interesting politics, subtle manouvering, etc. I'm talking off the top of
my head, but I can imagine a properly-executed permadeath game being much
more "realistic", which in this sense is desirable I think. Real-life
politics and intrigue are very interesting primarily because there is such
a risk involved in attempting to murder someone, that very rarely do
conflicts degenerate into seeing who has the biggest guns around. A
weakness in my world (to my mind) is precisely that...conflicts almost
inevitably, and quickly, end by seeing who can kick whose ass. Things are
slowly moving away from that a bit, due to implementation of various
measures, but it's always going to be a part of Achaea. While I like a
good fight, I would prefer more intrigue and subtlety, and this is what I
think a permadeath system assists with.
Disclaimer: I've never played a permadeath game, so the above is all
speculation based on what JC said.
--matt - pet peeves David Bennett
- pet peeves Robert Woods
- pet peeves Wes Connell
- pet peeves Travis S. Casey
- pet peeves Matthew Mihaly
- pet peeves Neerenberg, AaronX
- pet peeves greg
- pet peeves Richard Woolcock
- pet peeves J C Lawrence
- pet peeves Martin Keegan
- pet peeves Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- pet peeves Matthew Mihaly
- pet peeves J C Lawrence
- pet peeves diablo@best.com
- pet peeves Brandon A Downey
- pet peeves diablo@best.com
- pet peeves Darren Henderson
- pet peeves diablo@best.com
- pet peeves Darren Henderson
- pet peeves Steve Houchard
- pet peeves diablo@best.com
- pet peeves Darren Henderson
- pet peeves diablo@best.com
- pet peeves Steve Houchard
- pet peeves diablo@best.com
- pet peeves Richard Woolcock
- pet peeves diablo@best.com
- pet peeves Richard Woolcock
- pet peeves Apocalypse
- pet peeves Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- pet peeves diablo@best.com
- pet peeves Adam Wiggins
- pet peeves diablo@best.com
- pet peeves Adam Wiggins
- pet peeves diablo@best.com
- pet peeves Mik Clarke
- pet peeves Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- pet peeves Travis S. Casey
- pet peeves Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- pet peeves Benjamin D. Wiechel
- pet peeves Marc Bowden
- pet peeves Matthew Mihaly
- pet peeves Mik Clarke
- pet peeves Benjamin D. Wiechel
- pet peeves Matthew Mihaly
- pet peeves Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- pet peeves Marc Bowden
- pet peeves Matthew Mihaly
- pet peeves David Bennett
- pet peeves David Bennett
- pet peeves Petri Virkkula
- pet peeves J C Lawrence
- Horror Themed Muds [was CthulhuMud Driver 6] Christopher Allen
- Horror Themed Muds [was CthulhuMud Driver 6] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Horror Themed Muds [was CthulhuMud Driver 6] Mik Clarke
- CthulhuMud Driver 6 Mik Clarke
- CthulhuMud Driver 6 J C Lawrence
- Mathengine Ling
- Mathengine Apocalypse
- Website update Koster, Raph
- Influential muds Koster, Raph
- Influential muds Dan Shiovitz
- Influential muds Adam Wiggins
- Influential muds Sunny Gulati
- Influential muds diablo@best.com
- Influential muds Juha Lindfors
- Influential muds Brandon J. Rickman
- Influential muds Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Influential muds Andy Cink
- Influential muds J C Lawrence
- Influential muds Dr. Cat
- Influential muds Jay Carlson
- Influential muds Mik Clarke
- Influential muds Richard Woolcock
- Influential muds Koster, Raph
- Influential muds Mik Clarke
- Influential muds Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Influential muds Dan Root
- Influential muds Benjamin D. Wiechel
- State of the art? Andy Cink
- State of the art? diablo@best.com
- State of the art? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- State of the art? ##Make Nylander
- State of the art? diablo@best.com
- State of the art? Martin Keegan
- State of the art? David Bennett
- State of the art? Martin Keegan
- State of the art? Andy Cink
- State of the art? J C Lawrence
- State of the art? David Bennett
- State of the art? Matthew Mihaly
- State of the art? Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- State of the art? Matthew Mihaly
- State of the art? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- State of the art? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- State of the art? J C Lawrence
- State of the art? Matthew Mihaly
- State of the art? Mik Clarke
- State of the art? J C Lawrence
- The Terrorist Class Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- The Terrorist Class Mik Clarke
- Welcome To "MUD-Dev"! mud-dev-admin@kanga.nu
- IMPORTANT ADMIN: New list setup requires your attention J C Lawrence
- ADMIN: URL change J C Lawrence
- PermaDeath (was pet peeves) Marc Hernandez
- ScryMUD 1.8.7 released. Ben Greear
- PermaDeath Sayeed
- PermaDeath Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- PermaDeath Sayeed
- roleplaying and immersion (was: PermaDeath) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Roleplaying and Immersion (was: PermaDeath) Sayeed
- Roleplaying and Immersion (was: PermaDeath) Adam Wiggins
- Roleplaying and Immersion (was: PermaDeath) J C Lawrence
- Roleplaying and Immersion (was: PermaDeath) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- WEB: VR-stuff Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- WEB: VR-stuff J C Lawrence
- WEB: VR-stuff Mik Clarke
- WEB: VR-stuff Marian Griffith
- WEB: VR-stuff J C Lawrence
- ADMIN: The list archives are now online and fully searchable J C Lawrence
- Theories was pet peeves Wes Connell