# August 2003

- A potential best-seller?
*Richard A. Bartle* - Identifying Players
*Scion Altera* - Identifying Players
*Crosbie Fitch*

- Identifying Players
- Metrics for assessing game design
*David Kennerly* - ADMIN: Crunch thread
*J C Lawrence* - Mapping real money into MUD money
*Alex Chacha* - Mapping real money into MUD money
*Katie Lukas* - Mapping real money into MUD money
*David Kennerly*

- Mapping real money into MUD money
- Mapping real money into MUD money
*Kent Peterson* - Mapping real money into MUD money
*Peter Tyson*

- Mapping real money into MUD money
- Mapping real money into MUD money
*Matt Mihaly* - Mapping real money into MUD money
*Paul Canniff*

- Mapping real money into MUD money
- Research in the Gaming Industry
*Damion Schubert* - Research in the Gaming Industry
*Kerry Fraser-Robinson* - Research in the Gaming Industry
*Richard A. Bartle* - Research in the Gaming Industry
*Matthew S. Ayres*

- Research in the Gaming Industry

- Research in the Gaming Industry
- Mapping real money into MUD-Money
*Henrik Johansson* - Java or LPC (DGD)?
*Ben Chambers* - Java or LPC (DGD)?
*Ammon Lauritzen* - Java or LPC (DGD)?
*T. Alexander Popiel* - Java or LPC (DGD)?
*ceo* - Java or LPC (DGD)?
*Lars Duening* - Java or LPC (DGD)?
*Torgny Bjers* - Java or LPC (DGD)?
*Ryan Underwood*

- Java or LPC (DGD)?

- Java or LPC (DGD)?
- Reputation systems: a possible path for investigation
*J C Lawrence* - Reputation systems: a possible path for investigation
*david.l.smith@mail-x-change.com* - Reputation systems: a possible path for investigation
*J C Lawrence*On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:09:42 -0400

david l smith <david.l.smith@mail-x-change.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, August 10, 2003, J C Lawrence said

>> Reputation systems are usually thought of as interesting ways for the

>> game system to define and provide predetermined and service-qualified

>> hinting and decision making keys to players about other players (PK,

>> trade, trust etc).

> Actually, as a developer, I was originally more interested in a

> reputation system that would let me add a noosphere {The article

> mentioned "http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue7_7/masum/" by

> Hassan Masum uses this notion, and it fits much better than my

> previous thinking.

I don't think we're saying anything different. Quoting myself:

> Arbitrary graining and subjective contextual per-player

> interpretation...

and:

> A possible approach instead is to treat the players as a homogeneous

> mesh and allow them to define the nouns and verbs in the reputation

> system, and possibly some of the high level grammars.

That pretty much defines a system where the users, players, define the

terms that have reputations attached to them, the definitions of those

terms, their semantics, value sets and ranges, the grammar with which

they are constructed etc.

How would that differ from the sort of noospwhere that you refer to?

> In a simulated environment, a part of the state of that simulation is

> the body of experience in the system: things that "everyone knows".

I think part of the problem is a confusion over what a reputation system

is, and what the payloads are that are carried by a reputation system.

I take a broad view, deriving from the definition of reputation:

Reputation (n): The character attributed to a person, thing, or

action; repute.

As such almost any conclusion that can be derived from a game, its

contents, or its players, or any player "think" about anything in a game

that can be put into a declarative statement is a valid payload for a

reputation "message".

More simply I view a reputation system as an undefined thing (in the

same sense that the TCP/IP "cloud" is an undefined "thing") that can

deliver hinting structures to players for their decision making

processes, no matter what, or how useful, the hints provided are.

There are several somewhat overlapping data sets which can be referred

to by the term, "reputation system":

1) An auditable recorded trail as to a thing's past behaviour as

evaluated by defined metrics and reported in a standard fashion. eg

UO's and M59's flagging of PKers.

2) An inter-player communication of perceived behaviour patterns,

often partially supported, reported in a contextual and subjective

fashion. eg Almost all player interaction or knowledge-transfer as

regards a game, including guild/group agglomerations and other proxy

forms.

3) Gossip. "Did you hear that...?"

4) Rumours. "I heard from someone who heard that..."

The last two are similar but bear distinct differences in that rumours

are explicitly third hand, can be machine simulated (gossip can't), and

suffer fairly well known and understood decay and mutation curves.

Gossip is always first hand (even when reported as third person

transcription), can't be machine simulated, travels well known

distribution paths that are extremely hard to simulate, and has equally

complex and discontinuous decay and mutation curves.

In the general, ultra-generic case I think of them as all flavours of

reputation systems as they all represent, in their transit, what a

player thinks of something -- what the reputation of the subject is with

the speaker.

Bubba is a PK'er.

The rotting rope bridge is safe to cross.

Guild Boffo are idiots.

Boffo PKed Bernie, Bubba, and Bruce.

Bernie has been PKed five times.

A good place to dig for mushrooms is around Fortress Fract.

The orcs by the western caverns are push overs.

Carrying a glass cross seems to make your more resistant to damage in

melees.

You get better quality iron ore if you spend a quarter of your time

digging with a wooden shovel and the rest of the time with a pick.

Stand behind the boulder when fighting the troll by the bridge and

you'll get hit less.

Boffo has the hots for Bernie.

Bubba's gonna kick Bruce's arse.

If you walk backwards you can get closer to a dragon before you get

hit.

There's a lot of gold in Castle Krak.

The elven sceptre does something weird in Castle Krak.

Watch out for the balrog.

All of these statements are hinting items which can cause and affect the

decisions players make. They are sample payloads which can be

communicated by a reputation system.

> That this includes much more than "faction a reaction bonus towards

> faction b" isn't well conveyed by most systems that I've seen). While

> the per-faction reputation tracking systems that today boil down to

> the one-dimensional relationship of "reaction bonus" are better than

> nothing, a more free-form (or rather, higher dimensionality of

> comparison without much more code) approach could make for some

> interesting emergent characteristics from the state of the noosphere.

Quite.

Its another thing to just hand the whole potato over to players and let

them determine what is going to be reported, how, on what scales, using

what nouns, etc.

Brian (as he's already posted) is somewhat concerned about the impact on

knowledge brokers. In brief discussion of this background with Jon

Leonard on DevMUD (along with brain as happens), Jon raised the issues

of trust, abuse, propaganda, and collateral damage.

What happens when the (majority of the?) data on your isn't

verifiable, or, simply, can't have its authorship perfectly traced?

What do the players do and how do they handle such a reputation

system?

What intersections and impacts do reputation systems have on the

timeliness and locality of data?

Can a player or band of players inject sufficient distorted and

self-serving data into the reputation system (by whatever means) that it

effectively becomes a propaganda machine and an instituter of the Big

Lie? Will players use and even trust such a necessarily untrustworthy

reputation system, and if not, will they create information economies to

derive value using it as one resource among several? Can your game

design survive a subjectively evaluated lack of secrets? Can your

player cultures? Can you be sued for libel or defamation of character

for lies or maligning statements reported on a game's reputation system?

> -- All non-player characters in the simulation form opinions...

> -- When non-player characters interact with each other...

Bingo.

> -- With some framework to cross correlate context data...

While I like the idea of the system providing sample correlations as a

seed culture, is it really necessary in the long run?

> -- If you wanted to finish the circle, tie it into your player

> character's experience, depending on the era, allow them to buy a

> newspaper, or "chat up the barkeep" to get a little slice of the hot

> gossip in the system nooosphere. Might be nice to know that the local

> keep thinks that the guy you're doing business with is shady, might be

> worth your silver to learn that he's rumored to have killed three good

> men. Then again, maybe you're fine going off in his party with him,

> never can tell really...

> go north

You approach a chasm which is crossed by a rotting rope bridge.

> examine bridge

It is made of rope and looks in very poor shape. The rope is visibly

rotten in places and there are several large holes in which look like

they were made by something falling through the bridge.

> consult system about bridge

Bubba says, "The bridge is safe." Score: 37.5

Boffo says, "Beware of the third step, its a doozie!" Score: 18.3

Bernie says, "Make sure you have the glowing toadstool." Score: -3.7

Bruce says, "Get thee across the bridge, varlet!" Score: -7.8

...etc

--

J C Lawrence

---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas.

claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh?

http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live.

- Reputation systems: a possible path for investigation
- Reputation systems: a possible path for investigation
*Brian 'Psychochild' Green* - Reputation systems: a possible path for investigation
*Andrew L. Tepper* - Reputation systems: a possible path for investigation
*Matt Mihaly* - Reputation systems: a possible path for investigation
*Vincent Archer*

- Reputation systems: a possible path for investigation

- Reputation systems: a possible path for investigation
- Reputation systems
*Castronova, Edward* - Reputation systems
*J C Lawrence*

- Reputation systems
- Mapping real money into MUD-Money
*Ren Reynolds* - MudDev Faq - part 2
*Marian Griffith* - PHP muds
*Peter Harkins* - PHP muds
*Torgny Bjers*

- PHP muds
- Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book
*Christer Enfors XW {TN/PAC}* - Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book
*Dave Rickey* - Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book
*Evan Harper* - Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book
*Richard A. Bartle* - Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book
*Tamzen Cannoy* - Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book
*Kerry Fraser-Robinson* - Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book
*Richard A. Bartle*

- Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book
- Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book
*Dave Rickey* - Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book
*Marc Bowden*

- Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book

- Slashdot story about review of Bartle's new book
- The lack of Creativity and Beauty a game user
*james_nesfield@nesfieldcapital.com* - Artists and Copyrights
*Derek Licciardi* - Artists and Copyrights
*Paolo Piselli* - Artists and Copyrights
*Marian Griffith* - Artists and Copyrights
*Paul Dahlke*

- Artists and Copyrights
- Using Windows Scripting Host
*Owen Matt* - Using Windows Scripting Host
*F. Randall Farmer* - Using Windows Scripting Host
*Karl Dyson* - Using Windows Scripting Host
*Tess Lowe*

- Using Windows Scripting Host
- Better Game Design through Data Mining
*David Kennerly* - Better Game Design through Data Mining
*Chris "Diamonds" Stewart*

- Better Game Design through Data Mining
- When Will Player-Avatar Integrity Be a Feature of Persistent Worlds?
*vladimir cole* - When Will Player-Avatar Integrity Be a Feature of Persistent Worlds?
*Martin Bassie* - When Will Player-Avatar Integrity Be a Feature of Persistent Worlds?
*Craig H Fry* - When Will Player-Avatar Integrity Be a Feature of Persistent Worlds?
*Matt Mihaly* - When Will Player-Avatar Integrity Be a Feature ofPersistent Worlds?
*Michael Tresca* - When Will Player-Avatar Integrity Be a Feature ofPersistent Worlds?
*Baar - Lord of the Seven Suns*

- When Will Player-Avatar Integrity Be a Feature ofPersistent Worlds?

- When Will Player-Avatar Integrity Be a Feature of Persistent Worlds?
- [Fwd: Metrics for assessing game design]
*ceo* - Examine/Look
*Elia Morling* - Examine/Look
*Ammon Lauritzen* - Examine/Look
*Marc Bowden*

- Examine/Look
- Examine/Look
*Lars Duening* - Examine/Look
*Eamonn O'Brien*

- Examine/Look
- [BUS] Account-management systems
*ceo* - [BUS] Account-management systems
*Rayzam* - [BUS] Account-management systems
*Christopher Allen*

- [BUS] Account-management systems
- Job opportunity on Star Wars Galaxies
*Koster, Raph* - NCSoft yearly report
*Mathieu Castelli* - MUD using the .net framework
*Norman Beresford* - MUD using the .net framework
*John Buehler* - MUD using the .net framework
*James F. Bellinger* - MUD using the .net framework
*Linder Support Team*

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- Virtual property lawsuit in China
*Koster, Raph* - Virtual property lawsuit in China
*Nicolai Hansen* - Virtual property lawsuit in China
*Daniel Anderson* - Virtual property lawsuit in China
*Kerry Fraser-Robinson*

- Virtual property lawsuit in China
- Virtual property lawsuit in China
*Vladimir Cole* - Virtual property lawsuit in China
*Ren Reynolds* - Virtual property lawsuit in China
*Nicolai Hansen* - Virtual property lawsuit in China
*ren@aldermangroup.com*

- Virtual property lawsuit in China

- Virtual property lawsuit in China

- Virtual property lawsuit in China
- Expected value and standard deviation.
*Jeff Cole* - Expected value and standard deviation.
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*Jeremy Hill*

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*katie@stickydata.com* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Ben Chambers* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Zach Collins {Siege}* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Ben Chambers* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Robert Zubek* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Kwon J. Ekstrom* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Eamonn O'Brien* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Kwon J. Ekstrom*

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*Freeman, Jeff* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Zach Collins {Siege}*

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*Bernard Graham* - Expected value and standard deviation.
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*Jeff Cole* - Expected value and standard deviation.
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*Katie Lukas*

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*Matt Mihaly* - Expected value and standard deviation.
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*Katie Lukas* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Matt Mihaly* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Paul Schwanz* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Matt Mihaly*

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*Koster, Raph* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Paul Schwanz* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Amanda Walker* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*John Buehler*

- Expected value and standard deviation.
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*Kwon J. Ekstrom* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Jeff Cole* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Paul Schwanz*

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- Expected value and standard deviation.
*Dr. Cat* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*David Loving* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Pat Ditterline* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Michael Chui* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Matt Mihaly*

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*Kwon J. Ekstrom*

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*Chanur Silvarian* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Katie Lukas* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com*

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*Oliver Smith*

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*Daniel Anderson* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Koster, Raph* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Nicolai Hansen*

- Expected value and standard deviation.

- Expected value and standard deviation.
- Expected value and standard deviation.
*Dark Lamenth* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Fidelio Gwaihir*

- Expected value and standard deviation.
- Expected value and standard deviation.
*Ola Fosheim GrĂ¸stad* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*gbtmud* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Tom "cro" Gordon* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Sheela Caur'Lir* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Roger Hicks* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Ola Fosheim GrĂ¸stad*

- Expected value and standard deviation.

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*Freeman, Jeff*

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*Matt Mihaly* - Expected value and standard deviation.
*Tom "cro" Gordon*

- Expected value and standard deviation.