November 2004
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really! (By R. Bartle) William Leader
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Richard A. Bartle
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Matt Mihaly
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Per Magne Bjørnerud
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Koster, Raph
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Richard A. Bartle
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Koster, Raph
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Matt Mihaly
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Wayne Witzke
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Wayne Witzke
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Koster, Raph
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Richard A. Bartle
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Matt Mihaly
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Koster, Raph
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) ceo
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Matt Mihaly
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Wayne Witzke
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Eric Random
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ted L. Chen
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Eric Random
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) J C Lawrence
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Richard A. Bartle
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Lee Sheldon
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) ceo
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Dana V. Baldwin
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) J C Lawrence
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Matt Mihaly
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Martin Keegan
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Mike Rozak
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Martin Keegan
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Mike Rozak
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Richard A. Bartle
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Koster, Raph
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Ken Snider
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Davion Kalhen
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Wayne Witzke
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Richard A. Bartle
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Dana V. Baldwin
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Johan
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Miroslav Silovic
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Otis Viles
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Miroslav Silovic
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Otis Viles
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Damion Schubert
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Douglas Goodall
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Miroslav Silovic
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design GZ
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Ted L. Chen
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Douglas Goodall
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Ted L. Chen
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Ken Snider
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Kirinyaga
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Davion Kalhen
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really! (By R. Bartle) William Leader
- ADMIN: The definitions of "What is role-playing?" J C Lawrence
- Semireliable UDP-based protocol development Scott Hilbert
- Semireliable UDP-based protocol development Mark Terrano (XBOX)
- Semireliable UDP-based protocol development Jeremy Gaffney
- The Lag monster... Harlan Beverly
- The Lag monster... Ben Carter
- The Lag monster... J C Lawrence
- The Lag monster... Amanda Walker
- The Lag monster... Miroslav Silovic
- The Lag monster... Morris Cox
- The Lag monster... Miroslav Silovic
- How many UDP sockets to use? PizaZ
- How many UDP sockets to use? Jon Mayo
- How many UDP sockets to use? Michael Montague
- JOB/RESUME: Cryptic Studios Needs Heroes! Serdar Copur
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By Chris Duesing
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By Chris Duesing
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) neild-mud@misago.org
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) neild-mud@misago.org
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) ceo
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) olag@ifi.uio.no
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) Koster, Raph
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) Koster, Raph
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
Raph Koster wrote:
> David Kennerly [mailto:kennerly@finegamedesign.com] wrote:
>> Raph Koster wrote:
>>> To me, the term "computer mediated community" has a very literal
>>> meaning and requires only "communication." Everything else you
>>> describe is emergent given the communications medium--we've seen
>>> most all of that list show up in IRC, for example.
>> I think that community includes trade, whereas communication (by
>> itself) does not. But perhaps I'm injecting too much of my own
>> opinions into the common meaning of "community."
> Based on the dictionary definitions, I suspect most would agree
> with me that you are bringing more to it than the bare
> necessities, certainly. I think #1 (as regards locality) and #2
> (as regards shared interests) are the most likely touchstone for
> us as regards muds.
[Definition snipped]
Yes, you're right.
It is relevant that only one of these definitions of "community" is
for a non-physical community. The definitions commonly cite members
who interact with each other. Physical interaction implies, though,
more substantial interaction than /just/ communication, such as
talking or typing. In a physical community, sex and violence cannot
go unmentioned. In a computer-mediated community, I believe that
trade is a reasonable requirement to signify that substantial
interaction is occurring. I don't devalue communication, but I
don't think communication alone indicates as much of a community as
more substantial interactions plus communication do.
>>> - a representation of space (the key factor that distinguishes
>>> text muds from other hypertextual systems)
>> One could order the systems along an axis: a text MUD has more
>> representation of space than hypertext does, but a graphical MUD
>> (usually) has a more consistent representation of space than a
>> text MUD does. I'm not sure that a text MUD sufficiently
>> represents physical space, unless you mean that any undirected
>> graph suffices.
> No, muds have the peculiarity of being an undirected graph wherein
> a spatial metaphor is employed. I grant you that there is no
> technical reason why the spatial metaphor is present, in the more
> robust systems, but nonetheless, it is present and common to
> virtually all mud systems.
> Even in more flexible codebases than the Diku family, when exits
> are given arbitrary labels, they are almost always coded for users
> in terms of spatiality. "Inside the TV" to use a famous LambdaMOO
> example, is still recognizably a location.
I think we're crossing signals. It sounds like you mean that the
users chat about location. Whereas, I mean that the data structures
in a text MUD server do not adequately represent physical space.
There is, for example, no consistent use of a vector. Granted,
graphic MUDs are not fully consistent either. For examples: portals
in Asheron's Call or dreams in Furcadia. These are examples of
non-spatial transportation. These are, for all intents and
purposes, examples of "teleportation." There is no relationship
between objects either side of the portal. In a text MUD, every
room transferral in is isomorphic to such a teleportation. Thus,
the room graph of a text MUD does not represent a vector space.
Sure, room-to-room portals, but for the most part deserts and broom
closets are both rooms in a text MUD.
>> I agree that there should be an organized and navigable place,
>> and that space suffices. But I'm not certain that space is
>> necessary for a text MUD.
> It is not technically necessary, and yet I would argue that were
> you to connect to a text mud that did not employ a spatial
> metaphor (eg, the "rooms" were not "places"), you would most
> likely mistake it for a gopher server or perhaps browsing under
> lynx. In other words, the spatial metaphor is intrinsic to our
> understanding of what a mud IS even if the technical capabilities
> of the code do not enforce the restriction.
Again, it sounds like you mean users chatting about location,
whereas I mean locations existing with physically consistent spatial
relationships.
>> At least for text, the space is not necessarily analogous to
>> physical space. The text MUD is isomorphic to an undirected graph
>> whose vertices may possess varying degrees of connectivity.
>> These edges may result in an inconsistent spatial arrangement. A
>> discrete representation of space, as a graph, would likely have a
>> consistent arrangement of edges between its vertices, such as in
>> a system of coordinates.
> I don't make any claims about this space being in any way
> Euclidean. The edges between vertices are by convention
> bidirectional, but many muds have been made with directed
> graphs. Many muds do not fit nicely onto graph paper because there
> are no assumptions made about scale. Nonetheless, the spatial
> metaphor is employed.
Again, metaphors are what users talk about. I mean the data
structures that represent space not in the user's head, but in the
server's computations. Text MUD servers do not represent any kind
of vector space (Euclidean or not). If you mean that the servers do
represent a space (besides the topological space, which is trivial,
since even hypertext and plain text are topological spaces), what
kind of space is it?
Well, I don't mean to disparage or contradict. I am certainly not
an opposing advocate to the thesis that a designer should maintain
the illusion of space. I agree with you about how users think about
their experiences in a text MUD. They think of it as if there were
a space there--even though there's no adequate representation of
space in the text MUD's data or algorithms.
I guess users think as if there were space because all animal brains
are adapted to navigating physical environments. Perhaps for this
reason users employ spatial metaphors.
Anyway, I'm sorry to side track us into a cul-de-sac of pointless
topics, but I'm happy to spot your thoughtful remarks along the way.
David
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree Eric Random
- The Root of the Tree David Kennerly
- Early Attempts at Slaying the Lag Monster Greg Boyd
- Early Attempts at Slaying the Lag Monster Amanda Walker
- Early Attempts at Slaying the Lag Monster Morris Cox
- Slaying the Lag Monster Kirinyaga
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Ken Snider
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Vincent Archer
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Michael Hartman
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Chek Yang FOO
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Tom "cro" Gordon
- NEWS: Security officials to spy on chat rooms Mike Rozak
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 (fwd) Michael Oxford
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking Dread Quixadhal
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking Morris Cox
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking Jason Downs
- Time Limited MUDs and Dead Horses Revived (was: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed by Newbies) Peter Keeler
- Time Limited MUDs and Dead Horses Revived (was: WhyVirtual Worlds are Designed by Newbies) John Buehler
- In Game Family Trees (Was: Time Limited MUDs) William Leader
- In Game Family Trees (Was: Time Limited MUDs) Johan A
- In Game Family Trees (Was: Time Limited MUDs) Amanda Walker
- In Game Family Trees (Was: Time Limited MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- Challenging the grind - take 2 Vincent Archer
- Time limited worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Mike Rozak
- Time limited worlds (was: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed by Newbies) Mike Rozak
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Mike Rozak
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Wayne Witzke
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Yannick Jean
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why VirtualWorlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Mike Rozak
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Sean Kelly
- Distributed virtual worlds Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- UI Design in MMOs Derek Licciardi
- UI Design in MMOs Mike Rozak
- UI Design in MMOs Mike Rozak
- UI Design in MMOs Sean Howard
- UI Design in MMOs Tom "cro" Gordon
- UI Design in MMOs David Kennerly
- UI Design in MMOs Nathan Rogers
- UI Design in MMOs Jason Murdick
- UI Design in MMOs Amanda Walker
- UI Design in MMOs rjw
- UI Design in MMOs Johan A
- UI Design in MMOs Derek Licciardi
- UI Design in MMOs rjw
- UI Design in MMOs Damion Schubert
- UI Design in MMOs Mike Rozak
- UI Design in MMOs Paolo Piselli
- UI Design in MMOs Mike Rozak
- UI Design in MMOs Ghilardi Filippo
- UI Design in MMOs Derek Licciardi
- UI Design in MMOs Mike Rozak
- UI Design in MMOs Corey Cauble
- Making the Customer Pay for Patch Bandwidth Michael Hartman
- Making the Customer Pay for Patch Bandwidth Robert "kebernet" Cooper
- Making the Customer Pay for Patch Bandwidth Michael Hartman
- Making the Customer Pay for Patch Bandwidth Byron Ellacott
- Making the Customer Pay for Patch Bandwidth Balthazaar
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Mike Rozak
- Time limited worlds (was: Why Virtual Worlds areDesigned by Newbies) Mike Rozak