November 2004
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really! (By R. Bartle) William Leader
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Richard A. Bartle
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Matt Mihaly
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Per Magne Bjørnerud
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Koster, Raph
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Richard A. Bartle
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Koster, Raph
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Matt Mihaly
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Wayne Witzke
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Wayne Witzke
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Koster, Raph
Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> I totally agree, but in the physical world I can set my own goals,
> choose my actions and go to different places. Not all the time,
> but most of the time. I view those as key defining qualities.
Hmm, to me "world" means "physical space." And since I view a key
requirement of "online worlds/muds" as being "uses a spatial
metaphor" it matches up quite nicely. So my fundamental "worldness"
qualities are apparently somewhat more basic.
> If those > don't hold then just call it a MOG or an online
> entertainment.
A flash movie is an online entertainment. A MOG is what, exactly--a
massive online game? That could be ilovebees or the AI web game,
which lie somewhat outside the field this mailing list covers.
> If > the world aspect isn't important to the system, why insist
> on > labelling it as a virtual world?
I cannot think of anything inside our vaguely defined field where a
spatial metaphor ISN'T important. It's a very bright dividing line,
for me.
> Two systems can share qualities > without being essentially the
> same thing. So, a system can both be a > multi-user game and a
> virtual world, and a multi-user game may be on > the borderline
> of being a virtual world.
Definitely; however, I am looking for the term that encompasses
Second Life AND City of Heroes, EverQuest AND LambdaMOO.These are
all flavors of the same thing in a way that Diablo is not (but that
Diablo II or Guild Wars arguably are).
> It is rather pointless to refer to all multi-user systems as
> virtual worlds, although most multi-user systems can be viewed as
> virtual worlds.
MOST multi-user systems do not employ a spatial metaphor. A text mud
is basically a hypertext system wherein the links are labeled with
directions and presumed to be movement, and where other browsers of
the same text block are displayed to you. You could change the links
to be thematic or something else, and remove the sense of place, end
up at something akin to the web or IRC, and it would have lost its
"worldness" to me, and fallen out of the field this list covers
(though obviously it would remain a close cousin).
> At the end of the day everyone will use their own definition based
> on what their own interests are, of course. I just don't think the
> definitions people come up with are particularly good for general
> use. IMO, they tend to arbitrarily exclude things the authors
> devalue and include somewhat peripheral things that authors value.
Definitional rigor seems like an important step in helping us
understand the field... JC made "defining mud" explicitly off-topic
for the list years and years ago, but I still think that it's
important for us as a community to arrive at SOME consensus. It
makes it damnably hard to discuss issues when we cannot even agree
on basic terminology. In this particular case, Richard's actual
thesis in his article has been largely overlooked by many
commentators because of the definitional problem.
> Note: I am not claiming that defintions are useful in their own
> right, or that terms and their definitons are "scientific", but I
> also don't like that they move to far away from their origin. We
> should be able to discuss the virtual world qualities of a system,
> the game qualities of a system as well as the social qualities of
> a system.
I strongly suspect that when you say "the virtual world qualities of
a system" you actually mean "the simulationist qualities of a
system," wherein simulationist is a term of some long standing (on
this list anyway). Is that accurate?
-Raph
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Richard A. Bartle
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Matt Mihaly
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Koster, Raph
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) ceo
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Matt Mihaly
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Wayne Witzke
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Eric Random
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ted L. Chen
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Eric Random
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) J C Lawrence
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Richard A. Bartle
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Lee Sheldon
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) ceo
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Dana V. Baldwin
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) J C Lawrence
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Matt Mihaly
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Martin Keegan
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Mike Rozak
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Martin Keegan
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Mike Rozak
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Richard A. Bartle
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Koster, Raph
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Ken Snider
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Davion Kalhen
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Wayne Witzke
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Richard A. Bartle
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Dana V. Baldwin
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Johan
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Miroslav Silovic
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Otis Viles
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Miroslav Silovic
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Otis Viles
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Damion Schubert
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Douglas Goodall
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Miroslav Silovic
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design GZ
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Ted L. Chen
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Douglas Goodall
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Ted L. Chen
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Ken Snider
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Kirinyaga
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Davion Kalhen
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really! (By R. Bartle) William Leader
- ADMIN: The definitions of "What is role-playing?" J C Lawrence
- Semireliable UDP-based protocol development Scott Hilbert
- Semireliable UDP-based protocol development Mark Terrano (XBOX)
- Semireliable UDP-based protocol development Jeremy Gaffney
- The Lag monster... Harlan Beverly
- The Lag monster... Ben Carter
- The Lag monster... J C Lawrence
- The Lag monster... Amanda Walker
- The Lag monster... Miroslav Silovic
- The Lag monster... Morris Cox
- The Lag monster... Miroslav Silovic
- How many UDP sockets to use? PizaZ
- How many UDP sockets to use? Jon Mayo
- How many UDP sockets to use? Michael Montague
- JOB/RESUME: Cryptic Studios Needs Heroes! Serdar Copur
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By Chris Duesing
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By Chris Duesing
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) neild-mud@misago.org
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) neild-mud@misago.org
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) ceo
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) olag@ifi.uio.no
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) Koster, Raph
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) Koster, Raph
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree Eric Random
- The Root of the Tree David Kennerly
- Early Attempts at Slaying the Lag Monster Greg Boyd
- Early Attempts at Slaying the Lag Monster Amanda Walker
- Early Attempts at Slaying the Lag Monster Morris Cox
- Slaying the Lag Monster Kirinyaga
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Ken Snider
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Vincent Archer
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Michael Hartman
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Chek Yang FOO
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Tom "cro" Gordon
- NEWS: Security officials to spy on chat rooms Mike Rozak
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 (fwd) Michael Oxford
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking Dread Quixadhal
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking Morris Cox
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking Jason Downs
- Time Limited MUDs and Dead Horses Revived (was: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed by Newbies) Peter Keeler
- Time Limited MUDs and Dead Horses Revived (was: WhyVirtual Worlds are Designed by Newbies) John Buehler
- In Game Family Trees (Was: Time Limited MUDs) William Leader
- In Game Family Trees (Was: Time Limited MUDs) Johan A
- In Game Family Trees (Was: Time Limited MUDs) Amanda Walker
- In Game Family Trees (Was: Time Limited MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- Challenging the grind - take 2 Vincent Archer
- Time limited worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Mike Rozak
- Time limited worlds (was: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed by Newbies) Mike Rozak
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Mike Rozak
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Wayne Witzke
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Yannick Jean
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why VirtualWorlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Mike Rozak
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Sean Kelly
- Distributed virtual worlds Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- UI Design in MMOs Derek Licciardi
- UI Design in MMOs Mike Rozak
- UI Design in MMOs Mike Rozak
- UI Design in MMOs Sean Howard
- UI Design in MMOs Tom "cro" Gordon
- UI Design in MMOs David Kennerly
- UI Design in MMOs Nathan Rogers
- UI Design in MMOs Jason Murdick
- UI Design in MMOs Amanda Walker
- UI Design in MMOs rjw
- UI Design in MMOs Johan A
- UI Design in MMOs Derek Licciardi
- UI Design in MMOs rjw
- UI Design in MMOs Damion Schubert
- UI Design in MMOs Mike Rozak
- UI Design in MMOs Paolo Piselli
- UI Design in MMOs Mike Rozak
- UI Design in MMOs Ghilardi Filippo
- UI Design in MMOs Derek Licciardi
- UI Design in MMOs Mike Rozak
- UI Design in MMOs Corey Cauble
- Making the Customer Pay for Patch Bandwidth Michael Hartman
- Making the Customer Pay for Patch Bandwidth Robert "kebernet" Cooper
- Making the Customer Pay for Patch Bandwidth Michael Hartman
- Making the Customer Pay for Patch Bandwidth Byron Ellacott
- Making the Customer Pay for Patch Bandwidth Balthazaar
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Mike Rozak
- Time limited worlds (was: Why Virtual Worlds areDesigned by Newbies) Mike Rozak