November 2004
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really! (By R. Bartle) William Leader
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Richard A. Bartle
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Matt Mihaly
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Per Magne Bjørnerud
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Koster, Raph
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Richard A. Bartle
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Koster, Raph
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Matt Mihaly
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Wayne Witzke
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Wayne Witzke
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Koster, Raph
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Richard A. Bartle
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Matt Mihaly
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Koster, Raph
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) ceo
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Matt Mihaly
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Wayne Witzke
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Eric Random
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ted L. Chen
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Eric Random
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) J C Lawrence
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Richard A. Bartle
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Lee Sheldon
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) ceo
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Dana V. Baldwin
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) J C Lawrence
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Matt Mihaly
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Martin Keegan
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Mike Rozak
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Martin Keegan
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Mike Rozak
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Richard A. Bartle
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By R. Bartle) Koster, Raph
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Ken Snider
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Davion Kalhen
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Wayne Witzke
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Richard A. Bartle
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Dana V. Baldwin
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Johan
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Miroslav Silovic
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Otis Viles
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Miroslav Silovic
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Otis Viles
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Damion Schubert
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Douglas Goodall
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Miroslav Silovic
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design GZ
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Ted L. Chen
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Douglas Goodall
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Ted L. Chen
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Ken Snider
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Kirinyaga
- Richard A. Bartle talks MUD Design Davion Kalhen
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really! (By R. Bartle) William Leader
- ADMIN: The definitions of "What is role-playing?" J C Lawrence
- Semireliable UDP-based protocol development Scott Hilbert
- Semireliable UDP-based protocol development Mark Terrano (XBOX)
- Semireliable UDP-based protocol development Jeremy Gaffney
- The Lag monster... Harlan Beverly
- The Lag monster... Ben Carter
- The Lag monster... J C Lawrence
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:55:25 -0800 (PST)
Harlan Beverly <hbomb@fastai.com> wrote:
> "Sean Kelly" <sean@f4.ca> wrote:
>>> I can see how optimizing the data sent might help performance,
>>> but I don't think data transfer is the bottleneck in regular
>>> gameplay.
> By your own admission, in some cases Data Transfer is one of the
> bottlenecks.
I smell a solution desperately in search of a problem and failing to
find one. Most of us on this list are some sort of engineers. We
can do a lot better than this.
I see a number of core problems with the proposal:
1) What the problem space is has yet to be defined past the very
vague arm waving level.
2) Whether in fact that problem space is in truth a problem for
the operators in that field hasn't been determined though several
in the area have suggested that it isn't for them.
3) Why such a proposed device would be a reasonable address to
that problem space hasn't been mentioned.
4) Whether in fact such a device could effectively address the
problem area hasn't been determined or discussed, let alone
logically demonstrated.
That makes it rather hard to know what is being discussed let alone
its valid applications.
> So for these players, data compression, grooming, etc. would
> indeed improve their apparent laggieness. (the question would be
> to what extend?)
What hard evidence do you have that such perceived lag is in fact
appreciably created by last mile constraints rather than
intermediate IP cloud routing and packet-loss issues? I'm not
saying that this isn't a reasonable supposition, just that as an
"obvious fact" it needs to be demonstrated.
There's a wide range of technological devices and services that
would be Really Cool and Utterly Bodacious (tm) if they were only
deployed. Some of them are truly wonderful and easily demonstrated
as everything they are sold as. The problem is that their value is
only delivered after N% end-user deployment, where N is typically
near 40% or higher -- and that's an absolute deal killer. They'll
never see the light of day in terms of effective market penetration.
Why is your approach different?
>> "Justin Randall" <logic@jrlogic.dyndns.org> wrote:
>>> Offloading *authoritative* server calculations to one or more
>>> clients only leads to new avenues of grief. Rule #1 in online
>>> gaming: NEVER trust the client, even if other clients are
>>> watching.
> I find this an interesting point, because 'the jaggies' is caused
> by incorrect extrapolation results, etc.
> What would happen to MMORPGs if you COULD TRUST THE CLIENT? For
> example, all players of a game must have a special NIC card (which
> I will gladly sell). This NIC card has preloaded firmware which
> is Digitally Signed (and cannot be modified without the creators
> digital signature)...
You are assuming that transport security solves the larger problem
rather than being one of the smaller and less significant components
in a verifiable service definition. In fact you're assuming that
verifiably correct data stream deserialising equates to a verifiably
correct server<->client_application data stream, which isn't in fact
true.
Consider for example a transparent ethernet bridges immediately
upstream of your device which intercepts, exposes and potentially
rewrites all packet streams. Such a bridge could be an external
device (eg $10 i486), or an application on the client host running a
loopback through a spare NIC into your NIC. Such devices are
cheaply available and setup (eg any Linux distribution), and the
programming required for the packet munging is not difficult. Or,
how about an installed kernel module on the client machine which
exposes the operation of your device and which intercepts and
rewrites both the data the application receives from the device
(potentially on the basis of OOB data from the ethernet bridge), or
which intercepts/rewrites the data the client application sends to
your device? Impossible to reliably detect and not a particularly
unusual or hard programming project, especially as prior art for
other devices and protocols is already well established and
available in the field.
> This NIC card (with a PowerPC + Digitally Signed Firmware), could
> perform certain interpolation/extrapolation/ and even certain
> Server functions... (Not sure what), that could help distribute
> the processing load away from the Server computer.
Are larger scale MUD servers known to be particularly CPU bound
rather that IO bound (IO to network, IO to memory bus, IO to storage
etc)? Why would a special purpose enhanced NIC be a suitable
address for that problem instead of simply buying more/faster
general purpose CPUs which don't require specialised vendor and
platform specific programming? If your device does offer some sort
of end-to-end guarantee, how would the device's operation and
service delivery be affected by intermediate network behaviour
(variant routing, packet loss, out-of-order packet delivery, etc)?
> What effect would this have on Game performance, apparent lag,
> etc?
That's rather up to you to demonstrate.
--
J C Lawrence
---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas.
claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh?
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. - The Lag monster... Amanda Walker
- The Lag monster... Miroslav Silovic
- The Lag monster... Morris Cox
- The Lag monster... Miroslav Silovic
- How many UDP sockets to use? PizaZ
- How many UDP sockets to use? Jon Mayo
- How many UDP sockets to use? Michael Montague
- JOB/RESUME: Cryptic Studios Needs Heroes! Serdar Copur
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By Chris Duesing
- NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies -No, Really! (By Chris Duesing
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) neild-mud@misago.org
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) neild-mud@misago.org
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) ceo
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) olag@ifi.uio.no
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) Koster, Raph
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) Koster, Raph
- The Root of the Tree (was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds ...) David Kennerly
- The Root of the Tree Eric Random
- The Root of the Tree David Kennerly
- Early Attempts at Slaying the Lag Monster Greg Boyd
- Early Attempts at Slaying the Lag Monster Amanda Walker
- Early Attempts at Slaying the Lag Monster Morris Cox
- Slaying the Lag Monster Kirinyaga
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Ken Snider
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Vincent Archer
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Michael Hartman
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Chek Yang FOO
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking (fwd) Tom "cro" Gordon
- NEWS: Security officials to spy on chat rooms Mike Rozak
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 (fwd) Michael Oxford
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking Dread Quixadhal
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking Morris Cox
- [ssows] thinking about EQ2 - kill locking Jason Downs
- Time Limited MUDs and Dead Horses Revived (was: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed by Newbies) Peter Keeler
- Time Limited MUDs and Dead Horses Revived (was: WhyVirtual Worlds are Designed by Newbies) John Buehler
- In Game Family Trees (Was: Time Limited MUDs) William Leader
- In Game Family Trees (Was: Time Limited MUDs) Johan A
- In Game Family Trees (Was: Time Limited MUDs) Amanda Walker
- In Game Family Trees (Was: Time Limited MUDs) Matt Mihaly
- Challenging the grind - take 2 Vincent Archer
- Time limited worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Mike Rozak
- Time limited worlds (was: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed by Newbies) Mike Rozak
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Mike Rozak
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Wayne Witzke
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Yannick Jean
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why VirtualWorlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Mike Rozak
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Sean Kelly
- Distributed virtual worlds Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- UI Design in MMOs Derek Licciardi
- UI Design in MMOs Mike Rozak
- UI Design in MMOs Mike Rozak
- UI Design in MMOs Sean Howard
- UI Design in MMOs Tom "cro" Gordon
- UI Design in MMOs David Kennerly
- UI Design in MMOs Nathan Rogers
- UI Design in MMOs Jason Murdick
- UI Design in MMOs Amanda Walker
- UI Design in MMOs rjw
- UI Design in MMOs Johan A
- UI Design in MMOs Derek Licciardi
- UI Design in MMOs rjw
- UI Design in MMOs Damion Schubert
- UI Design in MMOs Mike Rozak
- UI Design in MMOs Paolo Piselli
- UI Design in MMOs Mike Rozak
- UI Design in MMOs Ghilardi Filippo
- UI Design in MMOs Derek Licciardi
- UI Design in MMOs Mike Rozak
- UI Design in MMOs Corey Cauble
- Making the Customer Pay for Patch Bandwidth Michael Hartman
- Making the Customer Pay for Patch Bandwidth Robert "kebernet" Cooper
- Making the Customer Pay for Patch Bandwidth Michael Hartman
- Making the Customer Pay for Patch Bandwidth Byron Ellacott
- Making the Customer Pay for Patch Bandwidth Balthazaar
- Distributed virtual worlds (Was NEWS: Why Virtual Worlds are Designed By Newbies - No, Really (By R. Bartle)) Mike Rozak
- Time limited worlds (was: Why Virtual Worlds areDesigned by Newbies) Mike Rozak