November 2001

• Digimask Technology. Matt Owen
• • Digimask Technology. Ian Macintosh
• Call for submissions to Game Programming Gems 3 Andrew Kirmse
• Virtual environments for education? Edward Glowacki
• • Virtual environments for education? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • • Virtual environments for education? Bruce Mitchener
  • Virtual environments for education? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
  • Virtual environments for education? Dr. Cat
  • Virtual environments for education? Mats Lidstrom
• Playing NPCs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
• A Hello, and thanks... o. rchaeus
• NPCS Mr Dylan Tovey
• • NPCS Travis Nixon
  • NPCS luke@rocketship.com
• Story in MM*s [was ] Joe Andrieu
• player-driven content? Sasha Hart
• • player-driven content? Paul Schwanz
  • • player-driven content? Bruce Mitchener
• (no subject) J C Lawrence
• • (no subject) Koster, Raph
  • (no subject) Peter Tyson
• WebRPG Travis Casey
• [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
• • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Brian Hook
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Nathan F. Yospe
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Mats Lidstrom
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
• "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
• • "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
  • • "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
    • • "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
    • "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
    • "sweeping change"? Matt Mihaly
    • • "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
• Re[4]: Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
• Cynical at a young age T.A.J.BARTON
• Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) John Mariotti
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Matt Chatterley
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sean K
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Don Healey
• Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
• • Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
  • • Some survey results... Jeremy Noetzelman
    • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
  • Some survey results... Dr. Cat
  • • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
    • • Some survey results... Dr. Cat
  • Some survey results... Derek Snider
  • • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
  • Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
• Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
• • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Leland Hulbert II
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
          • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Sellers, Mike
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Valerio Santinelli
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Brian Hook
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ola Fosheim Grøstad
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
      • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
          • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
      • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ling Lo
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
• [DGN] The Human Condition Kwon Ekstrom
• Multi-protagonist stories. Paul Schwanz
• • Multi-protagonist stories. Matt Mihaly
• licensing Adam Martin
• • licensing Vincent Archer
  • licensing Travis Casey
• Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sami Kosonen
• Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Brian Hook
• • Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
  • Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
• Good Writing (was: Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
• • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Buehler
    • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
    • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
    • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
    • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Mark Eaton
      • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
      • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
      • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
        • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
          • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
        • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Andrew Hefford
        • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Matt Mihaly
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
• Storied Games Paul Schwanz
• • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
  • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
  • • Storied Games Dave Rickey
    • • Storied Games Travis Casey
    • Storied Games Paul Schwanz
    • • Storied Games Marian Griffith
      • • Storied Games Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
      • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
      • • Storied Games John W. Pierce
        • • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
          • • Storied Games jsmithn@hotmail.com
  • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
  • • Storied Games Miroslav Silovic
    • • Storied Games Derek Licciardi
      • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
      • • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
        • • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
          • • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
            • • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
• Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
• • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Bruce Mitchener
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
  • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Marian Griffith
• Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
• • Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment Matt Mihaly
    • Player Manipulation of Environment Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
    • • Player Manipulation of Environment Eli Stevens
  • Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
    • • Player Manipulation of Environment Adam Martin
      • Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
      • Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
      • • Player Manipulation of Environment Ling Lo
        • • Player Manipulation of Environment rayzam
          • Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
          • Player Manipulation of Environment Marc Hernandez
• Fw: AVATARS2001 this weekend Frank Crowell
• [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
• • [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
• Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Kathleen Foley
• • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
  • • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Dave Rickey
    • • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
• not about telling stories Joe Andrieu
• • not about telling stories Freeman, Jeff
  • not about telling stories Travis Casey
• Storytelling and Professionals (was) Lee Sheldon
• A Non-Cumulative Character MMORPG? Heresy! Paul Schwanz
• Storytelling and Professionals (was) Ananda Dawnsinger
• Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Zak Jarvis
• • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
  • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
    • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
      • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
  • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Lee Sheldon
• Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
• • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms vognsen@post10.tele.dk
  • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
    • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
      • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
      • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Per Vognsen
      • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
        • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Eli Stevens
  • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
  • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Nicholas E. Walker
  • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Marcus Johansson
    • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
    • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Leland Hulbert II
• [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview - Richard's blunder :) Mathieu Castelli
• Subject: New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Robert Arras
• Meridian 59 purchased by developers Andrew Kirmse
• • Meridian 59 purchased by developers James C. Nugen
  • Meridian 59 purchased by developers Frank Crowell
• [STORY] Story and population size Adam Martin
• • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Timothy Dang
      • • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
      • [STORY] Story and population size Vincent Archer
      • • [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
    • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
      • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
        • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Freeman
          • • [STORY] Story and population size Travis Nixon
          • [STORY] Story and population size Wells, Thomas
          • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
          • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
              • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
              • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
                • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
                  • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
                      Jeff Cole writes:
                      
                      >> You're drifting away from the idea behind "entertainment
                      >> density". It's not an issue of actually coming up with a number
                      >> that reflects the "density" of entertainment. The purpose of
                      >> presenting the term at all is to put a notion into people's heads
                      >> that the amount of stimuli per unit time is important to players.
                      >> Not just the amount of stimuli available.
                      
                      > I don't think it's drifting at all. I think the concept of
                      > entertainment density is a very good one. But I do think that it
                      > is important to delve further into the concept and its practical
                      > application. Simply saying that a game does not have a high
                      > "entertainment density" really says nothing.
                      
                      What it says is that the volume of offered stimuli per unit time is
                      high. As to whether those stimuli appeal to a given participant or
                      not seems to be the issue that you want to hone in on. Note that
                      repetition of the same stimulus is not entertaining. For example,
                      watching my character run. It's not entertaining because it is
                      repetitive. If the character leapt objects, tripped, grunted,
                      huffed and puffed, sprinted, paused to inspect things, adjusted its
                      pack, etc, then there would be unique stimuli to the process of
                      running. Eventually even those things would lose their potential
                      for being stimulating because they would lose their uniqueness in a
                      given time interval. That's just a biochemical aspect of the human
                      brain.
                      
                      > By considering the entertainment densities of various aspects of a
                      > game with respect to the intended audience(s), developers could
                      > indentify potential areas for improvement.
                      
                      > But even in the abstract, by going through the process of honing
                      > the concept and the qualities we want to measure, perhaps we will
                      > better understand the art.
                      
                      > Also, I think it is important to note that if we are talking about
                      > some sort of mass (even relatively so) market MMO*, then you have
                      > to consider the attention span of the average target consumer and
                      > indentify what sort of density for which they hunger. It isn't
                      > the chess variety.
                      
                      It's important to note such things, but not when considering the
                      CONCEPT of "entertainment density". You're talking about the type
                      of entertainment, whereas I was originally inspired to make my
                      comments based on the simple dearth of stimulus in the games that I
                      play. I don't want to lose that point in the application of the
                      basic idea. Thus my unwillingness to go much beyond it in this
                      discussion.
                      
                      >> In the latter case, players will attempt to accelerate through
                      >> the available stimuli (aka content and other things) in order to
                      >> artificially bring up the "entertainment density" of the game to
                      >> a level that they find acceptable. Yes, that is a subjective
                      >> point, but I submit to you that the virtual reality model has an
                      >> inherently low density of stimuli.
                      
                      > I disagree that it is inherent. I think, though, that until games
                      > implement real "consequence" to action, the range of available
                      > player interactions will be necessarily and drastically limited.
                      > I am not talking so much about coded consequence as much as I am
                      > talking about provding the community the appropriate tools to
                      > create their own consequences. But that is a whole other can of
                      > worms.
                      
                      Another can, but certainly related. Because of the simple
                      programming techniques in use, developers need to understand that
                      their hardwired reactions to player character actions quickly lose
                      their ability to stimulate the brain. The first few times I crafted
                      something in a game world it was entertaining because it was a new
                      experience for me. Or it gave me something that I wanted to have.
                      Or it gave me the ability to interact with other players. But after
                      crafting that same item or a similar item (which produces an
                      identical experience) 20 times, the actual crafting process loses
                      all entertainment value. I may perceive a higher order pattern
                      (e.g. achieve a new crafting rank) that I can derive entertainment
                      from, but I want the stimulus of that pattern NOW, so I powercraft
                      in order to trigger that higher order pattern as soon as possible.
                      
                      The use of the player base in order to alter its own entertainment
                      has problems and potential. Part of the potential is to bring up
                      the entertainment density. New and varied things can be happening
                      all the time, whereas a hardcoded stimulus/response behavior from
                      the game software will not hold the same promise for a long time. I
                      suppose that if I had one statement to get across to game developers
                      about the whole "entertainment density" notion, that would be it.
                      
                      >> Leveling is entertaining. Changes in leaders in a competition
                      >> are entertaining. Seeing new sights is entertaining.
                      >> Experimenting with new abilities, spells, skills and items are
                      >> entertaining. These are distinct stimuli that have a shot at
                      >> actually tickling the brain of a player in some positive way.
                      >> Watching paint dry is not entertaining because there are
                      >> essentially no stimuli to please the brain. Show a time-lapse
                      >> film of paint drying and you will have a couple seconds of
                      >> entertainment as you see the areas dry according to the thickness
                      >> of the paint, etc.
                      
                      >> The question is, will players remain loyal to lower density
                      >> experiences when competing higher density experiences exist? And
                      >> I'm wondering and pondering the possibilities that permit a
                      >> competing higher-density experience. I'm wondering if such
                      >> reformulated 'high density experiences' will be the next step
                      >> beyond the creation of a virtual reality - which appears to be
                      >> the broad goal of current designers.
                      
                      > I still think the density concept as you apply it is too broad to
                      > be useful. Your examples run from chess (lots of though, but very
                      > little "stimuli" in the traditional sense) to leveling to
                      > exploring to experimenting. There is a lot of valuable insight
                      > one might glean from delving further. Drifting a bit wouldn't
                      > hurt either.
                      
                      The 'broadness' of the concept is very much by design. It is
                      intended to point out a very fundamental notion. Beyond that, I
                      welcome folks to examine any number of forms of entertainment with
                      that notion in the back of their mind. I suspect that Disney and
                      many other entertainment organizations already have a term for what
                      I'm talking about. It's not clear to me that the MMO gaming market
                      does.
                      
                      JB
            • [STORY] Story and population size Michael Tresca
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
        • [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
        • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
          • • [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
            • [STORY] Story and population size Paul Schwanz
            • [STORY] Story and population size Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Andrew Hefford
          • [STORY] Story and population size Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
  • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Marian Griffith
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
  • [STORY] Story and population size Bruce Mitchener
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Sellers, Mike
    • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
• [GENETICS] Evolving prey populations Adam Martin
• Stories, why? Ian Collyer
• • Stories, why? amanda@alfar.com
• Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Rob Ellis II
  • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Lee Sheldon
  • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Sellers, Mike
• Community Building Sanvean
• doesNotUnderstand behavior in C++ (was: Spoofs) Eli Stevens
• Importance of player roles Sasha Hart
• RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) lhulbert@hotmail.com
• • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) John Robert Arras
  • • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Leland Hulbert II
    • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) holding99@mindspring.com
  • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Dave Kennerly
  • • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Takis Kalogiratos
• Agora, a Wiki for MUD topics Bruce Mitchener