November 2001

• Digimask Technology. Matt Owen
• • Digimask Technology. Ian Macintosh
• Call for submissions to Game Programming Gems 3 Andrew Kirmse
• Virtual environments for education? Edward Glowacki
• • Virtual environments for education? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • • Virtual environments for education? Bruce Mitchener
  • Virtual environments for education? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
  • Virtual environments for education? Dr. Cat
  • Virtual environments for education? Mats Lidstrom
• Playing NPCs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
• A Hello, and thanks... o. rchaeus
• NPCS Mr Dylan Tovey
• • NPCS Travis Nixon
  • NPCS luke@rocketship.com
• Story in MM*s [was ] Joe Andrieu
• player-driven content? Sasha Hart
• • player-driven content? Paul Schwanz
  • • player-driven content? Bruce Mitchener
• (no subject) J C Lawrence
• • (no subject) Koster, Raph
  • (no subject) Peter Tyson
• WebRPG Travis Casey
• [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
• • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Brian Hook
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Nathan F. Yospe
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Mats Lidstrom
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
• "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
• • "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
  • • "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
    • • "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
    • "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
    • "sweeping change"? Matt Mihaly
    • • "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
• Re[4]: Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
• Cynical at a young age T.A.J.BARTON
• Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) John Mariotti
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Matt Chatterley
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sean K
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Don Healey
• Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
• • Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
  • • Some survey results... Jeremy Noetzelman
    • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
  • Some survey results... Dr. Cat
  • • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
    • • Some survey results... Dr. Cat
  • Some survey results... Derek Snider
  • • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
  • Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
• Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
• • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Leland Hulbert II
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
          • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Sellers, Mike
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Valerio Santinelli
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Brian Hook
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ola Fosheim Grøstad
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
      • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
          • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
      • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
          Paul Schwanz wrote:
          > Don Healey wrote:
          >> Raph Koster wrote:
          
          >>> To quote something I recently wrote on another list:
          
          >>> start quote--->
          >>> I've come to think that the blind effort to replicate the pen
          >>> and paper game in MMOs is seriously misguided. Frankly, they
          >>> are not trying to do the same thing. An MMO is for thousands
          >>> of simultaneous players of widely disparate interests and
          >>> abilities; a pen and paper session is for six of the same
          >>> level and the same goals. An MMO is non-linear, and a pen and
          >>> paper game is (in the best ones anyway) a strongly directed
          >>> narrative experience. A pen and paper game relies on
          >>> improvisation, and an MMO relies on other players. A pen and
          >>> paper game is cliquish and an MMO is the hoi polloi. How many
          >>> of the problems we identify with MMOs today come about because
          >>> they are trying to be someone's rose-colored memory of an AD&D
          >>> session in junior high?
          >>> <---end quote
          
          >> Actually my experiences are the OPPOSITE. Almost everything Raph
          >> described as being typical of the pen and paper experience is
          >> typical of my MMO experience, and most attributes listed for
          >> MMO's match my RPG experience - and with only limited stretching.
          
          >> I obviously accept MMO's are for thousands of simultaneous
          >> players. But they do not interact all together at once. In fact
          >> MMO's tend to encourage/force players to group together, and in
          >> particular EverQuest forces players to form groups of up to six
          >> (with reputed experience bonuses for a full group of 6), all of
          >> whom must be roughly the same level, as it becomes harder and
          >> harder to solo as you progress in experience. And as I mentioned
          >> the better RPG campaigns allow individual action
          
          > Are you sure you are not describing here the very same sort of
          > "problems we identify with MMOs today" that Raph is claiming are
          > the result of "the blind effort to replicate the pen and paper
          > game in MMOs?"
          
          That is a good point and no doubt Raph's intention, but to defend
          myself I will claim that there are no MMO's yet that match Raph's
          description (in my experience), though of course Raph has a better
          idea of what is under development than myself. But I guess my main
          concern was his very restricted description of pen and paper
          games. What I was trying to emphasise was that his ideal for MMO's
          closely matches my PnP RPG experience.
          
          > In other words, could not Raph's post be directly applicable to
          > the fact that MMO's tend to encourage/force players to group
          > together at roughly the same level when there is no logical reason
          > to do so.
          
          While that may have been his intent, and I believe Raph does have a
          real interest in the social interaction that occurs in MMO's, the
          key statement of his post was that pen and paper games are "CRAPPY
          MODELS FOR MUDS", and that carries much greater weight than just
          grouping.
          
          > Does Verant take this approach with EQ because it makes sense to
          > do so in an MMO, or do they take this approach because they are
          > trying to be "someone's rose-colored memory of an AD&D session in
          > junior high?"
          
          Well, when I first came across this restriction in EverQuest
          encouraging or enforcing players to group, I assumed cynically that
          it was a commercial decision designed to reduce the amount of
          content required for high level characters - but that may be more of
          a reflection on myself :(.
          
          > To me, it seems you are making all of Raph's points for him.
          
          I certainly hope not! It would seem that we have the same general
          idea of what would make a good MMO (probably can be said for many or
          most people on this list).
          
          But Raph's main point was that pen and paper games are not good
          models for MUDs. I tried to show that my experience in PnP RPGs, was
          significantly different (and was based on a successful and
          sustainable campaign design), while a lot of his assumptions are
          based on just one way or one style of playing PnP RPGs. That style
          of groups of players is in my opinion is a more basic model of
          playing RPGs, and therefore judgement in general should not be based
          on that particular style of play.
          
          Certainly for inter-player communication you would not use PnP RPGs
          as a model. The various forms of Internet communications (chat, ICQ,
          email, etc) would all make for better models of inter-player
          communications. Similarly, you should be examining other successful
          and well designed computer applications for modelling the user
          interface of a MMO (though of course you need to know what functions
          will be required in play).
          
          Good PnP campaigns include the following examples of games play
          (non-exhaustive list):
          
          character attributes,
          abilities,
          character progression,
          combat systems,
          magic systems,
          NPC interactions,
          world development,
          character reputation.
          
          Pen and paper games are not be the only models for these aspects of
          game play, but they are often good models.
          
          Game play is important for games marketed to the masses as all MMO's
          will presumably be. If the game play is poor the players won't be
          hooked. And many aspects of the gameplay exist already as working
          models in PnP games. Most game mechanics will already have been
          implemented in some PnP game - ranging from level based, skill based
          to game systems where players only have "traits" which are
          descriptions covering distinctive character attributes, skills,
          social standing etc.
          
          For example, NPC interactions are sometimes discussed on this
          list. Surely for modelling NPC interactions it would be best to use
          an environment where players can interact with NPC's without
          restraints? It would be impossible to implement all factors involved
          but particular aspects observed may be. A larger range of NPC
          interactions is potentially observable in PnP campaigns, where both
          parts, player and NPC) are played by people.
          
          > It is indeed a Bad Idea to automatically transplant PnP
          > methodologies > into an MMO.
          
          Yes - automatically transplanting anything into an MMO is a bad
          idea. Because of their size and scope (and the income generated by
          successful MMO's), I would assume that all aspects of design would
          be researched and tested thoroughly. (Maybe I'm wearing
          rose-coloured glasses now?)
          
          > This is not to say that MMO developers can learn nothing from
          > their PnP RPG roots. I think that would be a diservice, but I
          > haven't really seen anyone making that point in the current
          > thread. Rather, they make the point that for various reasons, PnP
          > RPGs are poor models for MMOs.
          
          That is the whole reason of why I am posting. While no one has said
          nothing can be learnt, stating PnP RPGs being poor models implies
          they have little to offer. And there have been others posting of
          similar views. The further implication is that there will be little
          lost if PnP Role-Playing Games die. I personally think there will
          be a lot lost if PnP games do die. It is not so much the rule books
          which are important, but how the campaigns are run that offers the
          value by opening the eyes of developers as to what is possible.
          
          > EQ and its grouping requirements are a smashingly good example of
          > this.
          
          It seems they have implemented a limitation from a manual system -
          never a good thing to do.
          
          Don.
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ling Lo
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
• [DGN] The Human Condition Kwon Ekstrom
• Multi-protagonist stories. Paul Schwanz
• • Multi-protagonist stories. Matt Mihaly
• licensing Adam Martin
• • licensing Vincent Archer
  • licensing Travis Casey
• Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sami Kosonen
• Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Brian Hook
• • Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
  • Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
• Good Writing (was: Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
• • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Buehler
    • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
    • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
    • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
    • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Mark Eaton
      • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
      • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
      • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
        • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
          • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
        • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Andrew Hefford
        • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Matt Mihaly
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
• Storied Games Paul Schwanz
• • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
  • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
  • • Storied Games Dave Rickey
    • • Storied Games Travis Casey
    • Storied Games Paul Schwanz
    • • Storied Games Marian Griffith
      • • Storied Games Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
      • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
      • • Storied Games John W. Pierce
        • • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
          • • Storied Games jsmithn@hotmail.com
  • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
  • • Storied Games Miroslav Silovic
    • • Storied Games Derek Licciardi
      • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
      • • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
        • • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
          • • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
            • • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
• Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
• • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Bruce Mitchener
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
  • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Marian Griffith
• Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
• • Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment Matt Mihaly
    • Player Manipulation of Environment Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
    • • Player Manipulation of Environment Eli Stevens
  • Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
    • • Player Manipulation of Environment Adam Martin
      • Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
      • Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
      • • Player Manipulation of Environment Ling Lo
        • • Player Manipulation of Environment rayzam
          • Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
          • Player Manipulation of Environment Marc Hernandez
• Fw: AVATARS2001 this weekend Frank Crowell
• [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
• • [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
• Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Kathleen Foley
• • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
  • • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Dave Rickey
    • • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
• not about telling stories Joe Andrieu
• • not about telling stories Freeman, Jeff
  • not about telling stories Travis Casey
• Storytelling and Professionals (was) Lee Sheldon
• A Non-Cumulative Character MMORPG? Heresy! Paul Schwanz
• Storytelling and Professionals (was) Ananda Dawnsinger
• Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Zak Jarvis
• • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
  • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
    • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
      • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
  • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Lee Sheldon
• Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
• • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms vognsen@post10.tele.dk
  • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
    • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
      • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
      • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Per Vognsen
      • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
        • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Eli Stevens
  • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
  • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Nicholas E. Walker
  • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Marcus Johansson
    • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
    • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Leland Hulbert II
• [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview - Richard's blunder :) Mathieu Castelli
• Subject: New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Robert Arras
• Meridian 59 purchased by developers Andrew Kirmse
• • Meridian 59 purchased by developers James C. Nugen
  • Meridian 59 purchased by developers Frank Crowell
• [STORY] Story and population size Adam Martin
• • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Timothy Dang
      • • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
      • [STORY] Story and population size Vincent Archer
      • • [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
    • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
      • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
        • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Freeman
          • • [STORY] Story and population size Travis Nixon
          • [STORY] Story and population size Wells, Thomas
          • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
          • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
              • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
              • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
                • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
                  • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
            • [STORY] Story and population size Michael Tresca
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
        • [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
        • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
          • • [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
            • [STORY] Story and population size Paul Schwanz
            • [STORY] Story and population size Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Andrew Hefford
          • [STORY] Story and population size Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
  • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Marian Griffith
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
  • [STORY] Story and population size Bruce Mitchener
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Sellers, Mike
    • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
• [GENETICS] Evolving prey populations Adam Martin
• Stories, why? Ian Collyer
• • Stories, why? amanda@alfar.com
• Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Rob Ellis II
  • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Lee Sheldon
  • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Sellers, Mike
• Community Building Sanvean
• doesNotUnderstand behavior in C++ (was: Spoofs) Eli Stevens
• Importance of player roles Sasha Hart
• RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) lhulbert@hotmail.com
• • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) John Robert Arras
  • • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Leland Hulbert II
    • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) holding99@mindspring.com
  • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Dave Kennerly
  • • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Takis Kalogiratos
• Agora, a Wiki for MUD topics Bruce Mitchener