November 2001
- Digimask Technology. Matt Owen
- Digimask Technology. Ian Macintosh
- Call for submissions to Game Programming Gems 3 Andrew Kirmse
- Virtual environments for education? Edward Glowacki
- Virtual environments for education? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Virtual environments for education? Bruce Mitchener
- Virtual environments for education? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Virtual environments for education? Dr. Cat
- Virtual environments for education? Mats Lidstrom
- Playing NPCs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- A Hello, and thanks... o. rchaeus
- NPCS Mr Dylan Tovey
- Story in MM*s [was ] Joe Andrieu
- player-driven content? Sasha Hart
- player-driven content? Paul Schwanz
- player-driven content? Bruce Mitchener
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- (no subject) Koster, Raph
- (no subject) Peter Tyson
- WebRPG Travis Casey
- [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
- [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Brian Hook
- [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Nathan F. Yospe
- [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Mats Lidstrom
- [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
- "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
- "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
- "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
- "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
- "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
- "sweeping change"? Matt Mihaly
- "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
- Re[4]: Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
- Cynical at a young age T.A.J.BARTON
- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) John Mariotti
- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Matt Chatterley
- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sean K
- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Don Healey
- Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
- Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
- Some survey results... Jeremy Noetzelman
- Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
- Some survey results... Dr. Cat
- Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
- Some survey results... Dr. Cat
- Some survey results... Derek Snider
- Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
- Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Leland Hulbert II
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Sellers, Mike
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Valerio Santinelli
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Brian Hook
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ling Lo
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
- [DGN] The Human Condition Kwon Ekstrom
- Multi-protagonist stories. Paul Schwanz
- Multi-protagonist stories. Matt Mihaly
- licensing Adam Martin
- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sami Kosonen
- Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Brian Hook
- Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
- Good Writing (was: Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Buehler
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Mark Eaton
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Andrew Hefford
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Matt Mihaly
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
- Storied Games Paul Schwanz
- Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
- Storied Games Lee Sheldon
- Storied Games Dave Rickey
- Storied Games Travis Casey
- Storied Games Paul Schwanz
- Storied Games Marian Griffith
- Storied Games Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Storied Games Lee Sheldon
- Storied Games John W. Pierce
- Storied Games Lee Sheldon
- Storied Games jsmithn@hotmail.com
- Storied Games Matt Mihaly
- Storied Games Miroslav Silovic
- Storied Games Derek Licciardi
- Storied Games Matt Mihaly
- Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
- Storied Games Matt Mihaly
- Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
- Storied Games Matt Mihaly
- Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
- Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Bruce Mitchener
- Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
- Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Marian Griffith
- Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
- Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
- Player Manipulation of Environment Matt Mihaly
- Player Manipulation of Environment Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
- Player Manipulation of Environment Eli Stevens
- Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
Paul Schwanz wrote:
[Snip bits on extincion, etc.]
> When it comes to responding to extremes in animal populations,
> however, I don't think we are limited to simply increasing spawn
> rates. While I haven't fully fleshed out the idea, I lean toward
> having various "genes" that automatically respond to player
> actions in a way that functions something like a crude sort of
> natural selection. This is off-the-cuff, but I'll give a simple
> example.
I'm a great fan of ALife, and think such models would be really
interesting if implemented in an online world. I have to question
though, whether it's really a very useful thing to do. At the most
basic level, you'd be devoting a fair amount of CPU cycles to
determining a lot of things that would be entirely in the background
and probably never surface to player view. Natural (or unnatural)
selection allows an organism to adapt to its environment -- i.e.
survive better. Unless your MUD really needs rabits to survive
better, I think it's a lot of work for not much reward. I guess you
may indeed want better rabbits just to keep the population alive but
to what end? You'll have a lot of imbalances if monsters start
getting tougher and tougher as the game goes on. You always (and
I'm speaking with the general "you" here) have to be aware that
allowing a large subsystem of your game to "evolve" freely could
potentially change the game environment a lot. (If it can't, what's
the point?)
> Suppose the wild rabbit has three "genes."
Nitpick: You really mean "trait" (or one of several more technical
terms).
> (h) Higher hit point gene
> (b) Faster birth-rate gene
> (c) Better camouflage gene
> Each rabbit has one of these genes that is dominant. Provided a
> rabbit recieves the proper nourishment, it will give "birth" after
> a certain amount of time. (This can be a simple spawn nearby,
> since our desire for more interaction with our virtual world
> doesn't necessarily require that we have rabbit sexes or preclude
> the idea of having things spawn into our world.) When it gives
> birth, there is the greatest chance that the offspring will carry
> the same dominant gene, but a smaller chance that another gene
> will become dominant. There is also a chance that the dominant
> gene will become more pronounced. We could test and tweak the
> numbers, but let's assume a 60/20/20 per cent chance respectively.
Just to get off on a technical tanget here, aside from the general
(and very interesting) idea of ALife on MUDs....
Although I'm sure you know that your setup here doesn't strictly
follow the way real genes work, you have two problems, I think.
First, IMO, the whole point of ALife is to run a simulation that
eventually (or continually) comes up with a result -- in this case,
What rabbit-type lives best? Further, the point of ALife is really
to do this for situations which are so complex that a person can't
just look at it and see how things will turn out.
With this setup, I can look at any rabbits with the same "dominant
gene" and myself determine which is better -- no simulation
required. Having "more pronounced" versiouns of each dominant gene
seems pointless to me, or at least less interesting than other
options, since the lesser forms are always worse. It's liek being
given the choice between the shotgun and the super-shotgun in Quake
on the later levels -- why even choose the former (I know, there are
reasons -- not the best example).
Secondly, and more problematic, is the fact that your traits are
numeric in nature and not binary switches. If I ran it now, I'd
soon enough have rabbits that became better and better: their trait
rating would continue to rise unchecked. Eventually, you'd have
100% invivisble rabbits -- or whatever other ceiling you establish.
The problem is that there's no disadvantage to becoming specialized
here: no complex interaction between genes.
At a minimum, you don't simply want a "dominant gene" but rather a
total balance between traits. If a rabbit gets better at stealth,
its other abilities should suffer.
[Snip example.]
> What would this mean? As I think through the different scenarios,
> a few thoughts come to my mind.
> When a particular area of rabbits came under heavy hunting, it
> seems to me that those with the b-gene would be the first to go
> according to Raph's information. But certainly those with the
> h-gene wouldn't be far behind. This will naturally select for
> those with the c-gene to survive, especially those with higher
> levels of the c-gene, since a rabbit with the c9-gene could be
> effectively invisible. Eventually, hunters will not find very
> many rabbits in that area and move on to other hunting grounds.
I don't quite understand how this is a good thing. If the purpose
of rabbits (or whatever other player-accessible resource exists)
becomes unaccessible, what's its purpose?
> Since there is a chance that even those rabbits with a high level
> c-gene will give birth to a rabbit with a different gene, when a
> particular area is not hunted heavily, the area will be
> repopulated with rabbits having the other genes dominant. Soon,
> there may be lots of rabbits with all sorts of genes in that area
> again.
True, if no further "evolutionary pressure" is put on the
population, it would drift back to neutral. However, my guess is
that players aren't going to entirely abandon a zone like this, and
that some degree of pressure will stay. Once rabbits develop the
100% invisibility, a rabbit that is visible will just get butchered
and never pass on its genes. The problem I see is that you're going
to get stagnant populations very shortly that will have no reason to
change in one direction or another. They're certainly not natrually
going to become less specialized.
> If the area has no other natural rabbit predators, the rabbits
> with higher birth rates will tend to be most prevalent in an
> unhunted area. On the other hand, if predators are predisposed to
> eat rabbits with lower hit points, then rabbits with the h-gene
> may predominate.
This is the most intersting part of your (specific) scheme: seeing
what rabbit-type becomes dominant in a given area. I still don't
know what game purpose this really serves though.
> Or consider the case where someone decides to have a rabbit farm.
> As they observe the birth rates of the rabbits, they might figure
> out that those with the b-gene give birth more quickly. When it
> comes time to kill a rabbit for its pelt, which rabbit will be the
> first to go? I don't think it will be the rabbit with the highest
> birth rate. I imagine rabbit farmers will come to value rabbits
> with higher birth rates and seek to protect them over others.
Unnatural, artificial selection, eh? :) Also interesting, though as
I stated, you'll really need to have genes that aren't all good or
all bad to posess. Right now, there's no reason for a farmer not to
choose breeder rabbits. It would be a lot more fun, IMHO if he had
to weigh price gained (at market say) vs. number produced, for
instance.
> Also, what if the utility of an animal increased with age?
> Suppose you might run accross young bucks, adult bucks, mature
> bucks, large bucks, and trophy bucks while hunting deer. This
> might also provide an incentive to be more selective. Especially
> if your community has noticed that the deer population is
> dwindling, and has decided to implement deer permits and quotas.
> The community might have an incentive to do this if they need to
> meet (character) population goals to level and are concerned that
> an ecosystem that is too out of whack may drive some players to
> other communities.
I don't think I'd have enough faith in a community to actually make
decisions like this. Few people really have a group mentality
online, since the rewards are so imediate and the penalties not
real. (Always comes back to griefers doesn't it? ;)
> In any case, that is the basic concept. I'm not in any way
> committed to the actual numbers. I think it would take a lot of
> experimentation to see what works best, but I don't see why the
> concept cannot be made to work. I may have missed much, though.
It all depends on what you're trying to do. Keep rabbits alive for
the sake of maintaining the ecosystem? Maintaining a challenge for
ever-levelling-up characers? Creating a simulation? I agree
though, it *could* work.
--
Jasper "Asmaul" McChesney
jasperm@student.umass.edu / jasp@javanet.com
Historian, amateur scientist, recreational mathematician,
writer, thinker, game designer & artist. - Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
- Player Manipulation of Environment Adam Martin
- Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
- Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Player Manipulation of Environment Ling Lo
- Player Manipulation of Environment rayzam
- Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Player Manipulation of Environment Marc Hernandez
- Fw: AVATARS2001 this weekend Frank Crowell
- [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
- [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
- Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Kathleen Foley
- Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
- Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Dave Rickey
- Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
- not about telling stories Joe Andrieu
- not about telling stories Freeman, Jeff
- not about telling stories Travis Casey
- Storytelling and Professionals (was) Lee Sheldon
- A Non-Cumulative Character MMORPG? Heresy! Paul Schwanz
- Storytelling and Professionals (was) Ananda Dawnsinger
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Zak Jarvis
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Lee Sheldon
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms vognsen@post10.tele.dk
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Per Vognsen
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Eli Stevens
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Nicholas E. Walker
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Marcus Johansson
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Leland Hulbert II
- [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview - Richard's blunder :) Mathieu Castelli
- Subject: New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Robert Arras
- Meridian 59 purchased by developers Andrew Kirmse
- Meridian 59 purchased by developers James C. Nugen
- Meridian 59 purchased by developers Frank Crowell
- [STORY] Story and population size Adam Martin
- [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
- [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
- [STORY] Story and population size Timothy Dang
- [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
- [STORY] Story and population size Vincent Archer
- [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
- [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
- [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
- [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
- [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Freeman
- [STORY] Story and population size Travis Nixon
- [STORY] Story and population size Wells, Thomas
- [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
- [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
- [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
- [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
- [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
- [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
- [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
- [STORY] Story and population size Michael Tresca
- [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
- [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
- [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
- [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
- [STORY] Story and population size Paul Schwanz
- [STORY] Story and population size Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [STORY] Story and population size Andrew Hefford
- [STORY] Story and population size Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
- [STORY] Story and population size Marian Griffith
- [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
- [STORY] Story and population size Bruce Mitchener
- [STORY] Story and population size Sellers, Mike
- [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
- [GENETICS] Evolving prey populations Adam Martin
- Stories, why? Ian Collyer
- Stories, why? amanda@alfar.com
- Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Rob Ellis II
- Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Lee Sheldon
- Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Sellers, Mike
- Community Building Sanvean
- doesNotUnderstand behavior in C++ (was: Spoofs) Eli Stevens
- Importance of player roles Sasha Hart
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) lhulbert@hotmail.com
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) John Robert Arras
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Leland Hulbert II
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) holding99@mindspring.com
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Dave Kennerly
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Takis Kalogiratos
- Agora, a Wiki for MUD topics Bruce Mitchener