November 2001

• Digimask Technology. Matt Owen
• • Digimask Technology. Ian Macintosh
• Call for submissions to Game Programming Gems 3 Andrew Kirmse
• Virtual environments for education? Edward Glowacki
• • Virtual environments for education? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • • Virtual environments for education? Bruce Mitchener
  • Virtual environments for education? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
  • Virtual environments for education? Dr. Cat
  • Virtual environments for education? Mats Lidstrom
• Playing NPCs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
• A Hello, and thanks... o. rchaeus
• NPCS Mr Dylan Tovey
• • NPCS Travis Nixon
  • NPCS luke@rocketship.com
• Story in MM*s [was ] Joe Andrieu
• player-driven content? Sasha Hart
• • player-driven content? Paul Schwanz
  • • player-driven content? Bruce Mitchener
• (no subject) J C Lawrence
• • (no subject) Koster, Raph
  • (no subject) Peter Tyson
• WebRPG Travis Casey
• [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
• • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Brian Hook
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Nathan F. Yospe
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Mats Lidstrom
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
• "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
• • "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
  • • "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
    • • "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
    • "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
    • "sweeping change"? Matt Mihaly
    • • "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
• Re[4]: Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
• Cynical at a young age T.A.J.BARTON
• Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) John Mariotti
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Matt Chatterley
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sean K
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Don Healey
• Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
• • Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
  • • Some survey results... Jeremy Noetzelman
    • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
  • Some survey results... Dr. Cat
  • • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
    • • Some survey results... Dr. Cat
  • Some survey results... Derek Snider
  • • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
  • Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
• Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
• • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Leland Hulbert II
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
          • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Sellers, Mike
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Valerio Santinelli
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Brian Hook
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ola Fosheim Grøstad
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
      • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
          • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
      • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ling Lo
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
• [DGN] The Human Condition Kwon Ekstrom
• Multi-protagonist stories. Paul Schwanz
• • Multi-protagonist stories. Matt Mihaly
• licensing Adam Martin
• • licensing Vincent Archer
  • licensing Travis Casey
• Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sami Kosonen
• Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Brian Hook
• • Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
  • Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
• Good Writing (was: Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
• • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Buehler
    • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
    • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
    • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
      On Mon 26 Nov, Bruce Mitchener wrote:
      > Marian Griffith wrote:
      
      >> 1) Muds can't be narratives for the players. Players "live" in
      >> the game, they participate far more directly than the reader of
      >> a book, or the viewer of a movie. Techniques and strategies
      >> that work for a narrative structure do not work for muds. This
      >> is a direct result from the "everybody wants to be the hero of
      >> the game" law.
      
      > I disagree with the conclusion that you've stated here. I think
      > that techniques and strategies that work for a narrative structure
      > can and should work for muds, both in the sense of them being an
      > online world and their providing gameplay experiences.
      
      The key issue is, I think, that there is a difference between the
      mud *providing* the story and the mud *being* the story, ane even
      that does not exactly express what I mean. I think that part of the
      problem is that we are talking about something new, so that our
      words do not accurately describe it. We try to explain it but we can
      only interpret it in terms of words that are meaning other things in
      more traditional contexts.
      
      > While players "live" in the game, there are a lot of things going
      > on around them:
      
      Events going on around the player living in the game are certainly
      parts of stories, and may even be part of a narrative (I think those
      two are hardly the same). It is clear that you can tell a story in
      a mud. It would be foolish to claim otherwise. I do not think you
      can tell a story with a mud, and certainly not a narrative. Not with
      the mud as a whole. My life is not a narrative (or is if it is I
      rather not know about it!) even if I can tell about it, and I can
      affect things that I do and react to the things that happen around
      me. It is even possible, though hardly interesting, to tell a story
      about my life to somebody else (and thus making a true narrative out
      of the story about me). My life itself, however, can not be
      considered a narrative. It just IS. The same, to a large degree, is
      true for the life of the characters on a mud. The match however is
      not perfect, and there are a few situations where somebody else has
      the ability to shape the events in, even the very nature of. the
      game world. The gods in a game world play a much more active role
      than the ones in ours.
      
      > * They see events unfold around them. A cart passes them on a
      > street. They may or may not notice this, and if they do, it
      > will be conveyed them in some manner, be it through a visual
      > depiction, a textual description of the appearance of the cart
      > passing, a textual description of the smell of the cart
      > passing, or some thing else.
      
      This really is part of the staging of the game. It may provide a
      bit (or a lot) more depth to the game world, and to the experience
      of playing but it is not in itself a vital characteristic of a
      narrative.
      
      > * They may hear a story from someone else, player, GM, or NPC.
      
      This is a narrative, but one that takes place within the context of
      the game. It is similar to gathering around a bonfire and tell each
      other stories. Or to sit in front of the tv, and watch the evening
      news. It can be a narrative, but it is not outside of the
      game. Rather it is inside the game, part of it. Not something im-
      posed on it from the outside.
      
      > * They may wander into a new situation and have to determine
      > what is going on. You wander into a bar. Someone is arguing
      > with your friend. Or are they haggling over the cost of
      > something?
      
      I am not sure, if and in what way, this relates to the subject of
      narrative structures as muds.
      
      > To do the above, requires a couple of skills on the part of the
      > game, the game content, potentially some players, the GM staff,
      > and surely other components:
      
      Certainly.
      
      Let's see.
      
      If I play Myst then I really take part of a narrative. I may have to
      perform certain critical actions to allow the story to continue
      (that is what makes it a game as opposed to a cartoon movie), but
      ultimately there is only a single story that is being told to me,
      the player. The same is true for e.g. The Longest Journey. Both
      are basicaly narratives. I have no doubt there are also some games
      where the decisions the player makes in the first stage of the game
      affect the possibilities of the rest of the game. I.e. there is
      more than one path to take through the story. However it is still a
      story being told to the player. I think this is what people mean
      when they talk about interactive games? I would give an example if
      I knew of one, but I would argue that both are narratives underneath
      the trappings of being a game and being a particular genre of game.
      For muds this kind of structure will not work, and that is what the
      law I proposed attempts to say.
      
      > * Provide a definition of a character or an object within the
      > environment. This would include providing the relevant and
      > necessary information to convey plot information, an
      > appropriate mental model for the user, as well as some form of
      > visual or textual representation.
      
      This is important for a narrative, but something that will not
      readily work on a mud. Not the representation part, but the plot
      information. Plots can not cover the entirity of the players over
      the entirity of the mud's existence, unlike single player games.
      
      > * Provide a context for actions that are going on. This could
      > include the auditory cues, the visible environment, lighting
      > levels, among other things. * In some cases, provide a greater
      > context for the actions that are going on. In the case of a
      > large hunt, or a quest of some sort, this would potentially be
      > through some sort of storytelling.
      
      These are essentially stage effects. While they convey meaning and
      even clues to the reader/viewer, their importance is less obvious
      for muds.
      
      > * A progression through time and through events, with the world
      > changing around the characters.
      
      This, I think, is one of the points where the narrative structure
      breaks down for muds. In two ways. As a whole muds must not have a
      progression. Quite the contrary, they must be a stagnant as can be
      possibly achieved. Otherwise the replayability will suffer and that
      is what makes money for these games(*). The second reason why
      progression of events will not work for a mud is that it depends on
      a gradual disclosure of information. In other words the player(s)
      must work their way through the layers that the narrative puts
      around the key events and learn every bit of information in the
      right order to enjoy the story. This clearly is unfeasible for a
      mud, unless you wish to run the story only once, but that in itself
      creates problems and is basically not a good approach for a mud.
      
      (* This was intentionally exagerated to make the point more clear In
      general it is safe to say that change in a mud is dangerous because
      it upsets the game balance.)
      
      > In a 1966 essay, _Cinema and the Novel, Problems of Narrative_,
      > Italo Calvino had written:
      
      > "Let us say, then, that what the cinema has that is
      > completely cinematographic ought not to be matched against
      > its literary ancestors. From that standpoint, cinema and the
      > novel have nothing to teach other and nothing to learn from
      > each other."
      
      > In saying that, he was referring to things like the use of the
      > camera: focusing on someone face, doing a wide panoramic shot,
      > exploiting a sequence of music. Later, he says:
      
      > "The cinema's love affair with the traditional novel has
      > bestowed upon it several inventions that immediately became
      > commonplaces, such as the off-screen voice to render the
      > first person singual, the flashback to represent the past,
      > the fade-out to convey the passage of time, and so on."
      
      > Further,
      
      > "The challenge of the written word continues to be one of the
      > chief motive forces of invention in the cinema, but -a thing
      > that never happened in the past -literature has begun to
      > function as a model of freedom. The cinema of today employs
      > a wealth of ways to tell a story. It can make a reminiscence
      > film, a diary film, a self-analysis film, a nouveau-roman
      > film, a lyric-poem film, and so on. All this is new for the
      > cinema, though less so for literature."
      
      > Despite the separation between cinema and the novel, there was
      > still much for cinema to learn from the novel. Similarly, judging
      > from the barest collection of things that I'd listed above, it
      > would appear that there is much to be studied, examined and
      > probably borrowed from the fields of literature, storytelling, and
      > semiotics to enhance our ability to present content, actions in
      > the world and assist in providing meaning and greater depth (but
      > without a lot of meaningless, excess detail hopefully).
      
      I certainly agree that it is possible, even eminently desirable to
      learn how to *stage* narratives in a mud. It is a medium as unique
      in its own right and as different from the novel as the cinema is.
      The law that I was stating is not nearly as ambitious (not to say
      rash) as to claim that you can not tell a story in a mud. That
      still does not mean that the mud can be a story. Myst would not
      make a good mud, and not because it lacks conflict. Narratives are,
      by their nature, about slowly building up of tension, gradual
      disclosure of crucial information. About "teasing" the audience, so
      to speak. In muds there is no audience, only the actors and the
      narrator has little to no ways to control the flow of information,
      or the flow of the actions. With hundreds or even thousands of
      actors you have not only a logistical nightmare to tell the story,
      you also have a situation where each player does not have the proper
      distance to the events to "grasp" what is going on with the story.
      For a narrative to work there has to be a certain distance between
      events and audience, even if the outcome of the events is of great
      importance to them. The audience needs to be able to reflect on the
      story as it is told, so techniques like character development,
      creating sympathy or antipathy, disclosure and building tension can
      work. Being the subject of the story, you are involved, possibly
      with the exclusion of all else, in survival. While that can make for
      a very engaging (or terrifying) experience, it is not a good
      situation for a narrative. You certainly can not build a mud that
      is focused on a single story.
      
      Marian
      --
      Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
      out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
      my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
      will there be loneliness ...
      
      Rolan Choosing Talia,
      Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey
    • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Mark Eaton
      • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
      • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
      • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
        • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
          • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
        • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Andrew Hefford
        • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Matt Mihaly
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
• Storied Games Paul Schwanz
• • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
  • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
  • • Storied Games Dave Rickey
    • • Storied Games Travis Casey
    • Storied Games Paul Schwanz
    • • Storied Games Marian Griffith
      • • Storied Games Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
      • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
      • • Storied Games John W. Pierce
        • • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
          • • Storied Games jsmithn@hotmail.com
  • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
  • • Storied Games Miroslav Silovic
    • • Storied Games Derek Licciardi
      • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
      • • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
        • • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
          • • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
            • • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
• Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
• • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Bruce Mitchener
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
  • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Marian Griffith
• Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
• • Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment Matt Mihaly
    • Player Manipulation of Environment Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
    • • Player Manipulation of Environment Eli Stevens
  • Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
    • • Player Manipulation of Environment Adam Martin
      • Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
      • Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
      • • Player Manipulation of Environment Ling Lo
        • • Player Manipulation of Environment rayzam
          • Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
          • Player Manipulation of Environment Marc Hernandez
• Fw: AVATARS2001 this weekend Frank Crowell
• [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
• • [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
• Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Kathleen Foley
• • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
  • • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Dave Rickey
    • • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
• not about telling stories Joe Andrieu
• • not about telling stories Freeman, Jeff
  • not about telling stories Travis Casey
• Storytelling and Professionals (was) Lee Sheldon
• A Non-Cumulative Character MMORPG? Heresy! Paul Schwanz
• Storytelling and Professionals (was) Ananda Dawnsinger
• Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Zak Jarvis
• • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
  • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
    • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
      • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
  • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Lee Sheldon
• Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
• • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms vognsen@post10.tele.dk
  • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
    • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
      • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
      • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Per Vognsen
      • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
        • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Eli Stevens
  • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
  • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Nicholas E. Walker
  • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Marcus Johansson
    • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
    • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Leland Hulbert II
• [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview - Richard's blunder :) Mathieu Castelli
• Subject: New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Robert Arras
• Meridian 59 purchased by developers Andrew Kirmse
• • Meridian 59 purchased by developers James C. Nugen
  • Meridian 59 purchased by developers Frank Crowell
• [STORY] Story and population size Adam Martin
• • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Timothy Dang
      • • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
      • [STORY] Story and population size Vincent Archer
      • • [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
    • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
      • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
        • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Freeman
          • • [STORY] Story and population size Travis Nixon
          • [STORY] Story and population size Wells, Thomas
          • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
          • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
              • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
              • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
                • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
                  • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
            • [STORY] Story and population size Michael Tresca
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
        • [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
        • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
          • • [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
            • [STORY] Story and population size Paul Schwanz
            • [STORY] Story and population size Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Andrew Hefford
          • [STORY] Story and population size Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
  • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Marian Griffith
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
  • [STORY] Story and population size Bruce Mitchener
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Sellers, Mike
    • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
• [GENETICS] Evolving prey populations Adam Martin
• Stories, why? Ian Collyer
• • Stories, why? amanda@alfar.com
• Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Rob Ellis II
  • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Lee Sheldon
  • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Sellers, Mike
• Community Building Sanvean
• doesNotUnderstand behavior in C++ (was: Spoofs) Eli Stevens
• Importance of player roles Sasha Hart
• RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) lhulbert@hotmail.com
• • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) John Robert Arras
  • • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Leland Hulbert II
    • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) holding99@mindspring.com
  • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Dave Kennerly
  • • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Takis Kalogiratos
• Agora, a Wiki for MUD topics Bruce Mitchener