November 2001
- Digimask Technology. Matt Owen
- Digimask Technology. Ian Macintosh
- Call for submissions to Game Programming Gems 3 Andrew Kirmse
- Virtual environments for education? Edward Glowacki
- Virtual environments for education? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Virtual environments for education? Bruce Mitchener
- Virtual environments for education? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Virtual environments for education? Dr. Cat
- Virtual environments for education? Mats Lidstrom
- Playing NPCs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- A Hello, and thanks... o. rchaeus
- NPCS Mr Dylan Tovey
- Story in MM*s [was ] Joe Andrieu
- player-driven content? Sasha Hart
- player-driven content? Paul Schwanz
- player-driven content? Bruce Mitchener
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- (no subject) Koster, Raph
- (no subject) Peter Tyson
- WebRPG Travis Casey
- [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
- [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Brian Hook
- [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Nathan F. Yospe
- [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Mats Lidstrom
- [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
- "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
- "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
- "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
- "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
- "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
- "sweeping change"? Matt Mihaly
- "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
- Re[4]: Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
- Cynical at a young age T.A.J.BARTON
- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) John Mariotti
- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Matt Chatterley
- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sean K
- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Don Healey
- Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
- Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
- Some survey results... Jeremy Noetzelman
- Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
- Some survey results... Dr. Cat
- Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
- Some survey results... Dr. Cat
- Some survey results... Derek Snider
- Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
- Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Leland Hulbert II
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Sellers, Mike
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Valerio Santinelli
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Brian Hook
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ling Lo
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
- [DGN] The Human Condition Kwon Ekstrom
- Multi-protagonist stories. Paul Schwanz
- Multi-protagonist stories. Matt Mihaly
- licensing Adam Martin
- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sami Kosonen
- Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Brian Hook
- Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
- Good Writing (was: Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Buehler
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Mark Eaton
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Andrew Hefford
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Matt Mihaly
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
- Storied Games Paul Schwanz
- Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
- Storied Games Lee Sheldon
- Storied Games Dave Rickey
- Storied Games Travis Casey
- Storied Games Paul Schwanz
- Storied Games Marian Griffith
- Storied Games Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Storied Games Lee Sheldon
- Storied Games John W. Pierce
- Storied Games Lee Sheldon
- Storied Games jsmithn@hotmail.com
- Storied Games Matt Mihaly
- Storied Games Miroslav Silovic
- Storied Games Derek Licciardi
- Storied Games Matt Mihaly
- Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
- Storied Games Matt Mihaly
- Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
- Storied Games Matt Mihaly
- Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
- Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Bruce Mitchener
- Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
- Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Marian Griffith
- Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
- Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
- Player Manipulation of Environment Matt Mihaly
- Player Manipulation of Environment Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
- Player Manipulation of Environment Eli Stevens
- Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
- Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
- Player Manipulation of Environment Adam Martin
- Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
- Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Player Manipulation of Environment Ling Lo
- Player Manipulation of Environment rayzam
- Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Player Manipulation of Environment Marc Hernandez
- Fw: AVATARS2001 this weekend Frank Crowell
- [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
- [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
- Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Kathleen Foley
- Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
-----Original Message-----
From: Kathleen Foley
> One qualification to this statement I'd add is that people can
> learn. Not everyone sprung forth fully-formed and able to
> entertain audiences with tales of adventure. I'm not talking
> about playing other games, either, I'm talking about serious study
> of literature and storytelling. Even this poor tech geek managed
> to get a degree in literature.
A friend of mine, Glen Dahlgren (Wheel of Time), was a programmer
first, and became an excellent writer. But I said elsewhere
something about paved roads and muddy paths...
> I agree that the attitude of "It just can't be done!" sounds silly
> coming from those that are not professional (or even trained)
> storytellers.
<nod> <sigh>
> I think you're being a little harsh here, Lee. Admittedly, my own
> AC experiences didn't involve story in any meaningful way; I was
> always too low of a level to interact with the "story" by the time
> I tried to play extensively. But, I don't think it's just that
> the story was "bad", I think it's more that the story didn't fit
> with the medium. I'll explain more below.
Instead of bad, I could have said unexceptional. But I was in an
ornery mood. We need more than unexceptional to create any sparks.
> (And, I don't mean to pick on the AC people, either. I've met
> lots of them and they're great people with bright ideas. Plus, I
> was just as guilty of creating a story unfit for the medium when I
> worked on Meridian 59.)
Me, too. Several are friends, and many of the original developers
came to my GDC tutorial the year the game was released, so maybe I
need to take a bit of the blame. :)
>> People don't want the games to tell them stories, they want them
>> to be stories.
<SNIPPING SEVERAL GOOD POINTS ABOUT RPGs AND STORIES THAT I AGREE
WITH>
> I don't hold much hope up for SW:G in this respect. (Sorry, Raph.)
> Given what I know about the Star Wars universe and all, I don't
> see much room left for players to do interesting things with
> within it. There's also the issue of licensed properties,
> something that Raph has already spoken out about (greatest
> boon... biggest albatross). The pre-conceived notions players
> will bring into the game will hinder chances for participatory
> storytelling. (On the other hand, if anyone can do it, I'd be
> Raph. I'm willing to eat my words for his sake. ;)
He writes. He clearly knows something about storytelling. My hopes
are based on that.
>> The truth is so much simpler. People LOVE to tell their own
>> stories, AND they love to have stories told to them.
>> AND. AND. AND. For the first time in modern entertainment we
>> have an industry with the theoretical capability to provide both
>> in a single mass media product. But it hasn't done it yet.
> And, this is what I think is the truth. Storytelling in our
> medium has to be participatory.
Yes, that is its strength and its potential.
> At one extreme, you have Mr. Rickey's main hypothesis, that you
> cannot do story, don't bother, let the players do it. This can
> only end in tragedy as expectations collide.
As I posted elsewhere they HAVE story. It's just sort of free
floating, connected to a vague backstory the way some quests were
connected to backstory in EQ. And another plus for DAoC's story:
it's much easier to find than EQ's! If you want, you can learn
pretty quickly who is on who's side, and who isn't... some history
of the realms, etc. It's just a shame it goes nowhere.
<SNIPPED PERILS OF PLAYER-CREATED STORIES COLLIDING>
> On the other hand, you can't have a monolithic story written by
> the developers that people can't interact with meaningfully. This
> is Asheron's Call's failing, IMHO. The story "affected" the
> world, but the players couldn't do much to affect the story!
Come on, Kathleen (er is that you Brian in that wig?), did the story
REALLY affect the world after the meteors at the end of Beta? Did
the rivers turning red affect how players played? Did the GM-driven
guest appearances affect anyone other than the few who lucked out
and happened to be on the scene when they occurred? My quibbling
doesn't mean I don't agree with your assessment. I do. Players
need to affect the story.
> It was the same way when we tried to tell the "story" of the
> Duke's death in Meridian 59. We had this great plot planned out,
> and we would tell this wonderful story! Sure, lots of people
> logged on for the story, but without a meaningful part in the
> story, most players got bored and started acting out.
Yup.
> Yet, finding the center of this spectrum isn't easy. There are
> professionals that know how to write stories, like Lee does.
> We've also seen how to create a sandbox for people to play in;
> we've also seen what that leads to (think early UO). So, how do
> you create a well-written, original story that allows people to
> interact and dynamically change it? I have my theories and I know
> Lee has his. It's not an easy answer, though, especially given
> the current climate.
And despite how it may appear here on this board, more than one is
trying.
>> Apparently this industry hasn't the imagination to do it. So it
>> says it can't be done, and even worse, that the hundreds of
>> millions of people who have responded to stories told to them
>> over the centuries don't want it either. It is to weep.
> Again, I think you're being a bit harsh, Lee.
Yeah. It wasn't an unthoughtful harshness though. :) Sometimes being
a bit extreme can spark the debate that subtler methods may leave
dormant.
> Personally, I think we're too busy worrying about other things to
> sweat the story. I think most of the people at Mythic wake up in
> the middle fo the night in a cold sweat shouting "How the HELL do
> these people create so many customer service issues!!!" Probably
> involves a lot more swearing, actually. They're also busy probably
> creating new ways of saying, "It's not a nerf."
Hehe. Agreed. But that's also an easy excuse in a culture with
little concern with content. I expect the additional content we the
players are now hearing about will be more of the same, and aimed at
the same subset of the potential audience. They've not done or said
anything to the contrary.
> Plus, the game industry is always adverse to risk, especially in
> times of economic slowdown. Expect a lot more EverQuest clones,
> even from games that originally wanted to be something else. The
> people with money want a sure bet, not some risky venture
> involving this "story" thing that we'll have to rely on expensive
> professionals to provide!
Yes, I mentioned in another thread that this isn't confined to our
industry alone. Look at Survivor. Look at all the Survivor clones.
Look at the numbers. Won't stop the next bandwagon from rolling on,
or people running to catch it though.
> Two things I will bring to defend DAoC:
> 1) It's been said in public that the game was intended to be
> evolutionary rather than revolutionary. This boils down into "We
> wanted to make a better EQ/AC/UO" for those of us not speaking
> from an official position. Therefore, you can't fault them for
> not including large amounts of story content since this wasn't
> exactly in the game plan.
I don't fault them for that at all, Kath... Brian... I will fault
the assumptions stated in this thread that may have grown out of
that goal however.
> Whether this is a good goal to have is an entirely different
> story.
I'm perfectly willing to let the market decide. I don't bear the
company or the game ill will. But I will rail against unsupportable
pontifications and justifications that may hurt our industry in
general by their narrow view of what the audience wants, or what
others in the industry may be able to provide.
> I fault Dave for
Ooops, I thought you were going to defend them twice...
> 2) There are some interesting nuggets of story if you know where
> to look. The "epic" quest for my class has some interesting bits
> of story in there. On the other hand, I've seen enough people
> wander by the smith near the forge in Jordheim asking about
> "Thane's Blood" (the theoretical target of my quest) enough times
> while crafting to know I'm hardly the first person on this great,
> expansive quest. :)
Yes, I've mentioned the story in the quests. Linear. Solo-game
structured. But still at times quite pleasant.
<SNIPPED BRIAN ADMITTING HE'S A STATISTICAL ANOMALY>
> People said the market couldn't support another fantasy game when
> DAoC was announced. It's gone on to sell an amazing amount of
> units in a small amount of time. True, it'll take some time to
> see if those people stay, if it's cannabalizing from other games,
> and if that pace can carry them to the top of the heap. But, the
> fact that it didn't fall flat on its face out of the gate proved a
> great many people wrong.
Well, others have pointed out its stability had a lot to do with it,
coming on the heels of disasters like WWII Online and AO. And I
like much of the gameplay elements in it. I'm still playing. I
signed up for another 3 months. Despite it's clonish tendencies, it
makes a number of things more fun for ex-EQers like me. And I do
think the market is a snake eating its own tail. There's a lot of
market history to back up that worry, as I mentioned here and
elsewhere. But the market for these IS finite. There will always
be some natural matriculation, but the market IS finite. Trust me
on that.
> While I agree that story-based games will be a natural progression
> for the medium and well eventually become the de facto standard, I
> don't think we're in any danger of running out of customers right
> now. I could be wrong about the running out of customers thing,
> though. :)
I may be underestimating this particular niche (which I don't
consider the same as Sims Online.). I hope I am, because "Me, Too"
development dollars vanish faster than chips at a roulette wheel.
We'll see.
Lee - Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Dave Rickey
- Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
- Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
- not about telling stories Joe Andrieu
- not about telling stories Freeman, Jeff
- not about telling stories Travis Casey
- Storytelling and Professionals (was) Lee Sheldon
- A Non-Cumulative Character MMORPG? Heresy! Paul Schwanz
- Storytelling and Professionals (was) Ananda Dawnsinger
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Zak Jarvis
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Lee Sheldon
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms vognsen@post10.tele.dk
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Per Vognsen
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Eli Stevens
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Nicholas E. Walker
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Marcus Johansson
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Leland Hulbert II
- [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview - Richard's blunder :) Mathieu Castelli
- Subject: New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Robert Arras
- Meridian 59 purchased by developers Andrew Kirmse
- Meridian 59 purchased by developers James C. Nugen
- Meridian 59 purchased by developers Frank Crowell
- [STORY] Story and population size Adam Martin
- [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
- [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
- [STORY] Story and population size Timothy Dang
- [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
- [STORY] Story and population size Vincent Archer
- [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
- [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
- [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
- [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
- [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Freeman
- [STORY] Story and population size Travis Nixon
- [STORY] Story and population size Wells, Thomas
- [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
- [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
- [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
- [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
- [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
- [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
- [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
- [STORY] Story and population size Michael Tresca
- [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
- [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
- [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
- [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
- [STORY] Story and population size Paul Schwanz
- [STORY] Story and population size Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [STORY] Story and population size Andrew Hefford
- [STORY] Story and population size Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
- [STORY] Story and population size Marian Griffith
- [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
- [STORY] Story and population size Bruce Mitchener
- [STORY] Story and population size Sellers, Mike
- [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
- [GENETICS] Evolving prey populations Adam Martin
- Stories, why? Ian Collyer
- Stories, why? amanda@alfar.com
- Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Rob Ellis II
- Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Lee Sheldon
- Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Sellers, Mike
- Community Building Sanvean
- doesNotUnderstand behavior in C++ (was: Spoofs) Eli Stevens
- Importance of player roles Sasha Hart
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) lhulbert@hotmail.com
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) John Robert Arras
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Leland Hulbert II
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) holding99@mindspring.com
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Dave Kennerly
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Takis Kalogiratos
- Agora, a Wiki for MUD topics Bruce Mitchener