November 2001

• Digimask Technology. Matt Owen
• • Digimask Technology. Ian Macintosh
• Call for submissions to Game Programming Gems 3 Andrew Kirmse
• Virtual environments for education? Edward Glowacki
• • Virtual environments for education? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • • Virtual environments for education? Bruce Mitchener
  • Virtual environments for education? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
  • Virtual environments for education? Dr. Cat
  • Virtual environments for education? Mats Lidstrom
• Playing NPCs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
• A Hello, and thanks... o. rchaeus
• NPCS Mr Dylan Tovey
• • NPCS Travis Nixon
  • NPCS luke@rocketship.com
• Story in MM*s [was ] Joe Andrieu
• player-driven content? Sasha Hart
• • player-driven content? Paul Schwanz
  • • player-driven content? Bruce Mitchener
• (no subject) J C Lawrence
• • (no subject) Koster, Raph
  • (no subject) Peter Tyson
• WebRPG Travis Casey
• [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
• • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Brian Hook
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Nathan F. Yospe
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Mats Lidstrom
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
• "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
• • "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
  • • "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
    • • "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
    • "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
    • "sweeping change"? Matt Mihaly
    • • "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
• Re[4]: Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
• Cynical at a young age T.A.J.BARTON
• Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) John Mariotti
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Matt Chatterley
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sean K
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Don Healey
• Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
• • Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
  • • Some survey results... Jeremy Noetzelman
    • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
  • Some survey results... Dr. Cat
  • • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
    • • Some survey results... Dr. Cat
  • Some survey results... Derek Snider
  • • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
  • Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
• Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
• • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Leland Hulbert II
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
          • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Sellers, Mike
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Valerio Santinelli
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Brian Hook
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ola Fosheim Grøstad
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
      • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
          • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
      • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ling Lo
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
• [DGN] The Human Condition Kwon Ekstrom
• Multi-protagonist stories. Paul Schwanz
• • Multi-protagonist stories. Matt Mihaly
• licensing Adam Martin
• • licensing Vincent Archer
  • licensing Travis Casey
• Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sami Kosonen
• Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Brian Hook
• • Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
  • Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
• Good Writing (was: Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
• • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Buehler
    • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
    • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
    • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
    • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Mark Eaton
      • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
      • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
      • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
        • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
          • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
        • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Andrew Hefford
        • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Matt Mihaly
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
• Storied Games Paul Schwanz
• • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
  • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Paul Schwanz
    
    > Is it much easier for a professional writer to understand the
    > nature of games than it is for a professional game developer to
    > understand the nature of writing?
    
    Ack, no. Probably harder. I know more programmers who have proven
    to be good writers than writers from other media who have attempted
    games. Of course there is a gleaming macadam highway leading from
    one to the other in the former case, and an over-grown rutted trail
    in the latter.
    
    > Or are you saying that something like Asheron's Call is not a
    > valid professional attempt at a "storied" game because they don't
    > have paid writers on staff?
    
    Chris Foster told me that their lead writer -was- a professional by
    my definition of the word: a writer who makes either all hert or his
    income from writing, or at least half her or his income primarily
    from writing, and the other half related to the writing (These are
    called hyphenates: writer/producer, writer director, writer/game
    designer for example). But hiring a professional writer doesn't
    guarantee good writing! Rememember all those badly-written solo
    games that even put on the box "Written by Hollywood Writer!" Not
    hiring any professionals ever however is an even iffier proposition.
    AC is not a "storied" game IMO because the story is entirely
    incidental to game play.
    
    > Personally, I don't think the lack of story in MMO's can be passed
    > off as simply a staffing issue. Interactivity itself has some
    > characteristics that make it antithetical to being *told* a story.
    > It is not simply that the stories are often poor, but that having
    > a story told to a player is an imposition on that player's
    > interactivity. Certainly both can exist together in the same MMO,
    > but when the story *telling* begins, the interaction stops.
    
    Yes! I agree! That is the way it's done most of the time. That's
    the way it was done (still is often) in solo games. But it doesn't
    have to be that poorly structured!
    
    > The question is not whether players like stories. They do. The
    > question is whether or not they like to stop interacting in the
    > game. I think that in many cases, they would rather not suffer
    > interruptions to their interaction.
    
    I sure don't like it. That's why I try not to force them to stop
    interacting just to tell stories. Just as writers learn to deliver
    exposition in action, writers need to learn to deliver story in
    gameplay. Instead in games we get long reams of text to wade
    through. Why? Making exposition unobtrusive seems to be an unknown
    art to most writing games. They... we... suffer because it is
    treated as an interruption. And if it needs to be an interruption
    (as some times it may - no law is carved in stone), it must be
    entertainment on the same level as the gameplay. End of story.
    
    > Apparently, the MMO industry is not alone in its inability to
    > deliver a "storied" game. So far, that "crew with a somewhat less
    > insular vision" has failed to produce as well. This, despite the
    > guarantee that it will leave all the others in the dust. And when
    > this crew does show, won't it then be part of the MMO industry
    > (what's left of it)?
    
    Actually there are examples of good storytelling in solo games.
    Outside this list it would be easy to come up with several from Shen
    Mue to Metal Gear Solid. I wouldn't include Max Payne on that list
    however, lol.
    
    <SNIPPED MORE ON STORY VS. INTERACTION WHICH I'VE RESPONEED TO
    ABOVE>
    
    > The issue is not that we are having difficulty imagining or even
    > building an environment in which players can tell stories and game
    > developers can also tell stories. It is certainly possible to
    > have an environment that allows for multiple authors. I've seen a
    > "story" written by dozens of authors with each contributing two or
    > three sentences. The result was chaotic to say the least.
    
    Gad, yes they're awful. In the 1930s a group of some of the best
    mystery writers of what is today considered the "Golden Age" of
    mystery fiction collaborated on a novel called "The President's
    Mystery Story." (Or something like that...) It was called that
    because the premise was suggested by FDR. Each one did a separate
    chapter. Here was a group of professional, GOOD writers, and the
    result was silly.
    
    (MORE SNIPPING OF STORY VS. INTERRACTIVE, EXCEPT...>
    
    > Certainly good interruptions are more likely to be tolerated than
    > bad ones, but they are still interruptions in the interactive
    > nature of the game.
    
    I suggest that an occasional respite, if well done, might actually
    be welcomed by some gamers. It's only when that's the ONLY way
    story is delivered that I start to shift uneasily in my chair. Heh,
    OT. That phrase reminded me of the worst typo I ever perpetrated on
    the world. It was read by several major studios, sigh. I meant to
    type as a stage direction: "He shifts uneasily in his chair." It
    came out: "He shits uneasily in his chair."
    
    I see three approaches to telling stories in MMO's.
    
    > The sandbox approach. Here, the stories are totally up to the
    > players. The developer may help facilitate player storytelling by
    > providing in-game medium and forums for such, but when it comes to
    > the stories themselves, they take a hands-off approach.
    > Interaction will typically by the main focus, which is fortunate
    > since the sort of stories that arise from this environment may
    > leave a lot to be desired. The problem is not only that the
    > storytellers are amateurs, but also that what they are trying to
    > tell (whether deliberately or simply through interaction) can be
    > quite disjointed or even at odds with other stories being told.
    
    Please explain this to Dave and Derek.
    
    > For instance, the story about an adventurer out to slay a dragon
    > may run afoul of the story about a thug who waylays unsuspecting
    > travellers. (A typical solution to this is to not let anyone tell
    > any stories about anything which might unduly influence another
    > player's story.) In any case, the sandbox approach to storytelling
    > suffers from a lack of continuity or an overall theme to provide
    > context and structure to the myriad voices. The result is often
    > something like what one would hear from a choir in which each
    > member is singing a different song. But since the focus isn't
    > really on the story and the developer has (hopefully) done well
    > with the interactive portion of the game, no one seems to mind too
    > much.
    
    Well, whether they mind or not is an open question. They don't have
    any other choice. There's never been a real alternative. So, as I
    mentioned before, what shows up on the boards is more of a whimper
    than a roar, and therefore largely lost in the noise.
    
    > The data-intensive approach. Here, the developer *tells* a story
    > to the players. The emphasis is strongly on the authorial will of
    > the developer. The players lose much of their ability to interact
    > with or influence the resulting story. In many cases, the players
    > seem prone to ignore the story and return to their interaction.
    > While this may be in large part a result of poor writing, it
    > remains to be seen whether players are interested in being pulled
    > away from their interaction at all.
    
    As long as story and interactivity are seen as mutually exclusive
    you'll be stuck with this unecessary dilemma.
    
    <MORE STORY VS. INTERACTION SNIPPED>
    
    > The process-intensive approach. It seems to me that there may be
    > a middle ground between the above extremes. Or maybe even lots of
    > middle grounds. I believe that a developer can be very deliberate
    > about introducing theme, context, and structure in the form of
    > process. In some cases, they can even introduce very specific
    > data, but still leave most of the story unfinished. I've given
    > examples of this in recent postings. The deliberate design of
    > mining and item creation to facilitate varied goals and quests is
    > one example of how process might be used to nudge players toward
    > telling stories (interacting) within this context. You could also
    > introduce something like the One Ring with its nine companions as
    > specific data, but then let player interaction determine how the
    > rest of the story will read. Here, instead of singing a specific
    > solo part (data-intensive), perhaps the director suggests a chord
    > upon which others can improvise (little data, mostly context or
    > process).
    
    There are many techniques you can use in this middle ground, which
    is precisely where I operate.
    
    > I suppose there still isn't much to keep choir members from
    > heading off on their own,
    
    We shouldn't be worried about that. There's already plenty in these
    games for them. WE just need to make sure the normal PvE or PvP
    gameplay is compelling enough to hold them. They're the easy part
    of the potential audience.
    
    > but I think there is much less chance that the effort will be
    > ignored, since it still allows interaction to be primary.
    
    I agree with the thought, if not the emphasis. Primary? To me
    entertainment is primary. Entertainment holds people. I'm just as
    flexible as I can be to guarantee that.
    
    Lee
  • • Storied Games Dave Rickey
    • • Storied Games Travis Casey
    • Storied Games Paul Schwanz
    • • Storied Games Marian Griffith
      • • Storied Games Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
      • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
      • • Storied Games John W. Pierce
        • • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
          • • Storied Games jsmithn@hotmail.com
  • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
  • • Storied Games Miroslav Silovic
    • • Storied Games Derek Licciardi
      • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
      • • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
        • • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
          • • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
            • • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
• Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
• • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Bruce Mitchener
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
  • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Marian Griffith
• Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
• • Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment Matt Mihaly
    • Player Manipulation of Environment Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
    • • Player Manipulation of Environment Eli Stevens
  • Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
    • • Player Manipulation of Environment Adam Martin
      • Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
      • Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
      • • Player Manipulation of Environment Ling Lo
        • • Player Manipulation of Environment rayzam
          • Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
          • Player Manipulation of Environment Marc Hernandez
• Fw: AVATARS2001 this weekend Frank Crowell
• [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
• • [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
• Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Kathleen Foley
• • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
  • • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Dave Rickey
    • • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
• not about telling stories Joe Andrieu
• • not about telling stories Freeman, Jeff
  • not about telling stories Travis Casey
• Storytelling and Professionals (was) Lee Sheldon
• A Non-Cumulative Character MMORPG? Heresy! Paul Schwanz
• Storytelling and Professionals (was) Ananda Dawnsinger
• Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Zak Jarvis
• • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
  • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
    • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
      • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
  • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Lee Sheldon
• Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
• • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms vognsen@post10.tele.dk
  • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
    • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
      • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
      • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Per Vognsen
      • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
        • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Eli Stevens
  • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
  • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Nicholas E. Walker
  • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Marcus Johansson
    • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
    • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Leland Hulbert II
• [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview - Richard's blunder :) Mathieu Castelli
• Subject: New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Robert Arras
• Meridian 59 purchased by developers Andrew Kirmse
• • Meridian 59 purchased by developers James C. Nugen
  • Meridian 59 purchased by developers Frank Crowell
• [STORY] Story and population size Adam Martin
• • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Timothy Dang
      • • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
      • [STORY] Story and population size Vincent Archer
      • • [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
    • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
      • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
        • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Freeman
          • • [STORY] Story and population size Travis Nixon
          • [STORY] Story and population size Wells, Thomas
          • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
          • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
              • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
              • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
                • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
                  • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
            • [STORY] Story and population size Michael Tresca
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
        • [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
        • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
          • • [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
            • [STORY] Story and population size Paul Schwanz
            • [STORY] Story and population size Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Andrew Hefford
          • [STORY] Story and population size Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
  • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Marian Griffith
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
  • [STORY] Story and population size Bruce Mitchener
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Sellers, Mike
    • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
• [GENETICS] Evolving prey populations Adam Martin
• Stories, why? Ian Collyer
• • Stories, why? amanda@alfar.com
• Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Rob Ellis II
  • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Lee Sheldon
  • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Sellers, Mike
• Community Building Sanvean
• doesNotUnderstand behavior in C++ (was: Spoofs) Eli Stevens
• Importance of player roles Sasha Hart
• RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) lhulbert@hotmail.com
• • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) John Robert Arras
  • • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Leland Hulbert II
    • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) holding99@mindspring.com
  • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Dave Kennerly
  • • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Takis Kalogiratos
• Agora, a Wiki for MUD topics Bruce Mitchener