November 2001

• Digimask Technology. Matt Owen
• • Digimask Technology. Ian Macintosh
• Call for submissions to Game Programming Gems 3 Andrew Kirmse
• Virtual environments for education? Edward Glowacki
• • Virtual environments for education? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • • Virtual environments for education? Bruce Mitchener
  • Virtual environments for education? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
  • Virtual environments for education? Dr. Cat
  • Virtual environments for education? Mats Lidstrom
• Playing NPCs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
• A Hello, and thanks... o. rchaeus
• NPCS Mr Dylan Tovey
• • NPCS Travis Nixon
  • NPCS luke@rocketship.com
• Story in MM*s [was ] Joe Andrieu
• player-driven content? Sasha Hart
• • player-driven content? Paul Schwanz
  • • player-driven content? Bruce Mitchener
• (no subject) J C Lawrence
• • (no subject) Koster, Raph
  • (no subject) Peter Tyson
• WebRPG Travis Casey
• [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
• • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Brian Hook
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Nathan F. Yospe
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Mats Lidstrom
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
• "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
• • "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
  • • "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
    • • "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
    • "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
    • "sweeping change"? Matt Mihaly
    • • "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
• Re[4]: Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
• Cynical at a young age T.A.J.BARTON
• Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) John Mariotti
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Matt Chatterley
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sean K
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Don Healey
• Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
• • Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
  • • Some survey results... Jeremy Noetzelman
    • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
  • Some survey results... Dr. Cat
  • • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
    • • Some survey results... Dr. Cat
  • Some survey results... Derek Snider
  • • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
  • Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
• Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
• • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Leland Hulbert II
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
          • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Sellers, Mike
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Valerio Santinelli
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Brian Hook
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ola Fosheim Grøstad
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
      • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
          • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
      • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ling Lo
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
• [DGN] The Human Condition Kwon Ekstrom
• Multi-protagonist stories. Paul Schwanz
• • Multi-protagonist stories. Matt Mihaly
• licensing Adam Martin
• • licensing Vincent Archer
  • licensing Travis Casey
• Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sami Kosonen
• Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Brian Hook
• • Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
  • Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
• Good Writing (was: Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
• • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Buehler
    • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
    • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
    • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
    • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Mark Eaton
      • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
      • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
      • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
        • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
          • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
        • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Andrew Hefford
        • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Matt Mihaly
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
• Storied Games Paul Schwanz
• • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
  • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
  • • Storied Games Dave Rickey
    • • Storied Games Travis Casey
    • Storied Games Paul Schwanz
    • • Storied Games Marian Griffith
      • • Storied Games Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
      • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
      • • Storied Games John W. Pierce
        • • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
          • • Storied Games jsmithn@hotmail.com
  • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
  • • Storied Games Miroslav Silovic
    • • Storied Games Derek Licciardi
      • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
      • • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
        • • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
          • • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
            • • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
• Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
• • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Bruce Mitchener
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
  • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Marian Griffith
• Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
• • Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment Matt Mihaly
    • Player Manipulation of Environment Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
    • • Player Manipulation of Environment Eli Stevens
  • Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
    • • Player Manipulation of Environment Adam Martin
      • Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
      • Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
      • • Player Manipulation of Environment Ling Lo
        • • Player Manipulation of Environment rayzam
          • Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
          • Player Manipulation of Environment Marc Hernandez
• Fw: AVATARS2001 this weekend Frank Crowell
• [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
• • [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
• Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Kathleen Foley
• • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
  • • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Dave Rickey
    • • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
• not about telling stories Joe Andrieu
  Interactive story is not about telling stories.
  
  Jeff Freeman wrote:
  
  > People don't want games to *tell* stories, they want games to *be*
  > stories.
  
  (probably quoting Dave Ricky)
  
  Yes! But you reach the wrong conclusion. Interactive stories are
  about BEING the hero in the story. If you start with a definition
  where this is not the case, you are working with a flawed idea of
  what it means to experience an interactive story.
  
  Interactive stories allow the player to be the hero-protagonist in
  the story. Joe Bates' classic "live" experiment using his group's
  Drama Manager model showed that in fact you can dynamically create
  compelling interactive experiences for the first person--even when
  the third person perception deems the story lame. The point is that
  the audience hated the play... while the player loved it.
  
  The underlying truth of Marian's proposed law is both valid and
  invalid. Yes, interaction is directly opposed to traditional
  narrative. The only way to interact with a traditionally defined
  story is to flip the pages back and forth. Truth. For in that
  medium, the story is indistinguishable from the concrete words on
  the page.
  
  However, it should be apparent that one can experience being the
  hero in a story--and that is completely independent of our ability
  today to create such experiences.
  
  This is my biggest frustration with this thread. Far too many people
  are pointing to the current state of the art and saying "Look! It
  doesn't work!" and then asserting that this must be the determined
  state of things. "Bunk!" I say.
  
  It would be far more profitable for us to clearly understand and
  define what it would mean to have a successful interactive
  story--with some new definition of story. Marian suggests that the
  need for a beginning, middle, and end precludes an MMO from having
  interactive story. True, to an extent. If you must define the
  entire MMO as *the story*. But that's like saying 11 years of
  _Cheers_ has to be *the_story* of the series. The fact is, every
  episode was a story. And rarely did the long-term story arc depend
  on the story arc in each episode. There is no reason that
  interactive stories--with full dramatic effect--cannot take place in
  MMOs, and even be the heart of the player experience just as the
  episodic stories of Cheers were the heart of that program.
  
  Paul Schwanz (Phinehas) wrote:
  
  > The data-intensive approach. Here, the developer *tells* a story
  > to the players. The emphasis is strongly on the authorial will of
  > the developer. The players lose much of their ability to interact
  > with >or influence the resulting story.
  
  and then
  
  > The process-intensive approach. It seems to me that there may be
  > a middle ground between the above extremes. Or maybe even lots of
  > middle grounds. I believe that a developer can be very deliberate
  > about introducing theme, context, and structure in the form of
  > process. In some cases, they can even introduce very specific
  > data, but still leave most of the story unfinished.
  
  Unfortunately, there is no clear logical link between the authorial
  direction of the game and the player's loss of ability to interact
  with or influence the resulting story. Many people have asserted
  that this is a fundamental and unavoidable obstacle to interactive
  story. That is only true if you define the story as the words
  written on the page--as a single concrete manifestation.
  
  The simplest counterpoint is the canonical grandparent telling a
  story to a grandchild. The story may start out with a certain
  direction, but with a willing storyteller, the child can influence
  the unfolding plot as well as the setting, theme, and props. (We'll
  ignore the fact that this need not be the case; since it can be the
  case it is a useful example.) In real-time, the grandfather responds
  and modifies the story while typically maintaining the story arc
  from introduction of characters, rising complications, climax and
  ultimately "happily ever after". The point is that interaction and
  impact need not be limited when crafting a true story arc. Note
  that this also requires that the story NOT be defined as a
  particular sequence of words or events, no matter the dramatic
  structure.
  
  Which is to say that the theoretical possibility of true interactive
  story is alive and well. And MMO*s are one of the most viable means
  to explore a possible solution to the puzzle of implementation.
  Some have argued that single-player games are much more suitable,
  thanks to the mutable nature of the "subjective" universe in which
  those games take place. The thinking continues that the "objective"
  universe shared in an online world is inherently antithetical to
  allowing each and every player to be the hero in their own story.
  The "objective" real-world universe does a pretty fine job of
  allowing each and every one of us to be the hero in our own story.
  No one actually plays the role of Guard #3 in our lives--unless our
  life is that guard, in which case our life story becomes "The Guard
  Story" and we are again the hero-protagonist. There are lessons to
  be learned here which become more apparent when one takes the time
  to figure out how to resolve the questions of interactive story in
  MMOs rather than single player games.
  
  Jeff also wrote:
  
  > What strikes me as a terrible idea is the notion that we should be
  > crafting these stories and shipping them to the players, then
  > stomping all over the story that the players would be creating, if
  > our story wasn't getting in their way, in order to shove our story
  > down their throats.
  
  Absolutely! Stomping all over player's stories is
  BAD. Evil. Fascist! Only short-sited single-player game developers
  would ever do something so despicable. And so, it cannot be part of
  the definition of true interactive story. Don't assume that authored
  stories must get in the way of the player's story--the goal is for
  them to seamlessly be the same thing. Naturally, smoothly, and
  without oppression.
  
  So, what is true interactive story?
  
  Is it sandbox-style games where context and tools are provided and
  the players must craft stories post-facto?
  
  Is it sport-style games where competition amongst teams is the
  emotional rallying point and again, stories are crafted
  post-facto?
  
  Is it force-fed narrative where the player has no control over
  their story actions other than solving puzzles and outwitting or
  out shooting enemy NPCS?
  
  Or is it Hamlet on the Holodeck where you ask the computer for a
  Sherlock-Holmesian story in which Moriarity is capable of
  defeating you, and a completely interactive simulation is
  constructed in real-time that responds to your (and other
  player's) actions and weaves it into a dramatic story arc?
  
  We can settle for the earlier models. In fact, we already have
  settled in the games currently on the market. We probably will
  continue to settle for most of the games currently in development.
  But we don't have to settle for it forever.
  
  Let's understand what it would take to reach that holy grail. What
  would it mean to achieve it? What is the player experience? What is
  the authorial role? What must the system provide?
  
  Only by understanding these questions can we hope to implement
  products that achieve the ultimate interactive
  entertainment. Stopping the conversation before it gets started--or
  blankly proclaiming that it cannot be done--is as bad as the Pope
  proclaiming that the earth is the center of the universe, which was
  official dogma well into the 20th century.
  
  -j
  
  --
  Joe Andrieu
  Realtime Drama
  
  joe@andrieu.net
  +1 (626) 395-8045
• • not about telling stories Freeman, Jeff
  • not about telling stories Travis Casey
• Storytelling and Professionals (was) Lee Sheldon
• A Non-Cumulative Character MMORPG? Heresy! Paul Schwanz
• Storytelling and Professionals (was) Ananda Dawnsinger
• Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Zak Jarvis
• • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
  • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
    • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
      • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
  • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Lee Sheldon
• Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
• • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms vognsen@post10.tele.dk
  • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
    • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
      • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
      • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Per Vognsen
      • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
        • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Eli Stevens
  • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
  • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Nicholas E. Walker
  • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Marcus Johansson
    • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
    • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Leland Hulbert II
• [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview - Richard's blunder :) Mathieu Castelli
• Subject: New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Robert Arras
• Meridian 59 purchased by developers Andrew Kirmse
• • Meridian 59 purchased by developers James C. Nugen
  • Meridian 59 purchased by developers Frank Crowell
• [STORY] Story and population size Adam Martin
• • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Timothy Dang
      • • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
      • [STORY] Story and population size Vincent Archer
      • • [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
    • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
      • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
        • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Freeman
          • • [STORY] Story and population size Travis Nixon
          • [STORY] Story and population size Wells, Thomas
          • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
          • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
              • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
              • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
                • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
                  • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
            • [STORY] Story and population size Michael Tresca
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
        • [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
        • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
          • • [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
            • [STORY] Story and population size Paul Schwanz
            • [STORY] Story and population size Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Andrew Hefford
          • [STORY] Story and population size Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
  • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Marian Griffith
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
  • [STORY] Story and population size Bruce Mitchener
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Sellers, Mike
    • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
• [GENETICS] Evolving prey populations Adam Martin
• Stories, why? Ian Collyer
• • Stories, why? amanda@alfar.com
• Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Rob Ellis II
  • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Lee Sheldon
  • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Sellers, Mike
• Community Building Sanvean
• doesNotUnderstand behavior in C++ (was: Spoofs) Eli Stevens
• Importance of player roles Sasha Hart
• RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) lhulbert@hotmail.com
• • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) John Robert Arras
  • • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Leland Hulbert II
    • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) holding99@mindspring.com
  • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Dave Kennerly
  • • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Takis Kalogiratos
• Agora, a Wiki for MUD topics Bruce Mitchener