November 2001

• Digimask Technology. Matt Owen
• • Digimask Technology. Ian Macintosh
• Call for submissions to Game Programming Gems 3 Andrew Kirmse
• Virtual environments for education? Edward Glowacki
• • Virtual environments for education? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • • Virtual environments for education? Bruce Mitchener
  • Virtual environments for education? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
  • Virtual environments for education? Dr. Cat
  • Virtual environments for education? Mats Lidstrom
• Playing NPCs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
• A Hello, and thanks... o. rchaeus
• NPCS Mr Dylan Tovey
• • NPCS Travis Nixon
  • NPCS luke@rocketship.com
• Story in MM*s [was ] Joe Andrieu
• player-driven content? Sasha Hart
• • player-driven content? Paul Schwanz
  • • player-driven content? Bruce Mitchener
• (no subject) J C Lawrence
• • (no subject) Koster, Raph
  • (no subject) Peter Tyson
• WebRPG Travis Casey
• [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
• • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Brian Hook
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Nathan F. Yospe
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Mats Lidstrom
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
• "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
• • "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
  • • "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
    • • "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
    • "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
    • "sweeping change"? Matt Mihaly
    • • "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
• Re[4]: Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
• Cynical at a young age T.A.J.BARTON
• Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) John Mariotti
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Matt Chatterley
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sean K
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Don Healey
• Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
• • Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
  • • Some survey results... Jeremy Noetzelman
    • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
  • Some survey results... Dr. Cat
  • • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
    • • Some survey results... Dr. Cat
  • Some survey results... Derek Snider
  • • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
  • Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
• Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
• • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Leland Hulbert II
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
          • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Sellers, Mike
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Valerio Santinelli
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Brian Hook
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ola Fosheim Grøstad
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
      • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
          • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
      • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ling Lo
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
• [DGN] The Human Condition Kwon Ekstrom
• Multi-protagonist stories. Paul Schwanz
• • Multi-protagonist stories. Matt Mihaly
• licensing Adam Martin
• • licensing Vincent Archer
  • licensing Travis Casey
• Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sami Kosonen
• Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Brian Hook
• • Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
  • Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
• Good Writing (was: Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
• • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Buehler
    • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
    • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
    • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
    • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Mark Eaton
      • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
      • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
      • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
        • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
          • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
        • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Andrew Hefford
        • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Matt Mihaly
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
• Storied Games Paul Schwanz
  Lee Sheldon wrote:
  > From: Dave Rickey
  
  >> People don't want the games to tell them stories, they want them
  >> to be stories.
  
  > And since we've never had a single valid professional attempt at a
  > "storied" game, then this is of course the obvious conclusion.
  
  Is it much easier for a professional writer to understand the nature
  of games than it is for a professional game developer to understand
  the nature of writing? Or are you saying that something like
  Asheron's Call is not a valid professional attempt at a "storied"
  game because they don't have paid writers on staff?
  
  Personally, I don't think the lack of story in MMO's can be passed
  off as simply a staffing issue. Interactivity itself has some
  characteristics that make it antithetical to being *told* a story.
  It is not simply that the stories are often poor, but that having a
  story told to a player is an imposition on that player's
  interactivity. Certainly both can exist together in the same MMO,
  but when the story *telling* begins, the interaction stops. The
  question is not whether players like stories. They do. The
  question is whether or not they like to stop interacting in the
  game. I think that in many cases, they would rather not suffer
  interruptions to their interaction.
  
  
  > The MMO industry (what's left of it) wants it to be true. The MMO
  > industry (what's left of it) needs it to be true. Because the MMO
  > industry (what's left of it) doesn't know how to deliver anything
  > else. Maybe SW:G will will be the first. Sims Online sure won't.
  > But one of these days an attempt at a real "storied" game will be
  > made by a crew with a somewhat less insular vision, shall we say,
  > and it will leave all the others in the dust.
  
  Apparently, the MMO industry is not alone in its inability to
  deliver a "storied" game. So far, that "crew with a somewhat less
  insular vision" has failed to produce as well. This, despite the
  guarantee that it will leave all the others in the dust. And when
  this crew does show, won't it then be part of the MMO industry
  (what's left of it)?
  
  
  >> They want it so badly, they're willing to forgive the brain-dead
  >> AI and artifical rules, because even if the story that is their
  >> play of the game is boring and repetitive, it's *theirs*.
  
  > Man, oh man, when you can point to an online game that has 1/100th
  > the audience of Titantic because so many people want to tell their
  > own stories, you will have some right to make a statement this
  > self-serving and misguided. The numbers don't support the thesis.
  > The history of our culture does not support the thesis. The
  > psychological makeup of human beings does not support the thesis.
  > But throw that all out the window, and continue to insist that
  > people want to tell their own stories, and THEREFORE we shouldn't
  > try to tell them any of our own. One does not preclude the other!
  
  People do love to tell stories, but not all play games because they
  want to tell their own stories. Many play games because they want
  interaction. They love stories so much that they often reshape
  their interaction into stories. People love to have stories told to
  them, but not all play games because they want to have stories told
  to them. Many play games because they want interaction. The
  success of Titantic may indicate that they love having stories told
  to them even more than they love telling stories. But as soon as
  you start *telling* a game player the story of Titantic instead of
  letting him make stories out of his interaction, you force him to
  give up that interaction. There is a certain authorial element to
  interaction that puts the game player in competition with the
  storyteller.
  
  > The truth is so much simpler. People LOVE to tell their own
  > stories, AND they love to have stories told to them.
  > AND. AND. AND. For the first time in modern entertainment we have
  > an industry with the theoretical capability to provide both in a
  > single mass media product. But it hasn't done it yet. Apparently
  > this industry hasn't the imagination to do it. So it says it
  > can't be done, and even worse, that the hundreds of millions of
  > people who have responded to stories told to them over the
  > centuries don't want it either. It is to weep.
  
  The issue is not that we are having difficulty imagining or even
  building an environment in which players can tell stories and game
  developers can also tell stories. It is certainly possible to have
  an environment that allows for multiple authors. I've seen a
  "story" written by dozens of authors with each contributing two or
  three sentences. The result was chaotic to say the least. It is
  also possible to have each author contribute her own short story
  into a sort of compilation. While each individual story will likely
  be better, they will still be disjointed as a whole. But the issue
  is really that the strength of gaming lies in its interactive
  qualities, and I believe that interaction can be very resistant to
  interruptions or direct interventions such as an outside source
  imposing authorial will. Certainly good interruptions are more
  likely to be tolerated than bad ones, but they are still
  interruptions in the interactive nature of the game.
  
  I see three approaches to telling stories in MMO's.
  
  The sandbox approach. Here, the stories are totally up to the
  players. The developer may help facilitate player storytelling by
  providing in-game medium and forums for such, but when it comes to
  the stories themselves, they take a hands-off approach. Interaction
  will typically by the main focus, which is fortunate since the sort
  of stories that arise from this environment may leave a lot to be
  desired. The problem is not only that the storytellers are amateurs,
  but also that what they are trying to tell (whether deliberately or
  simply through interaction) can be quite disjointed or even at odds
  with other stories being told. For instance, the story about an
  adventurer out to slay a dragon may run afoul of the story about a
  thug who waylays unsuspecting travellers. (A typical solution to
  this is to not let anyone tell any stories about anything which
  might unduly influence another player's story.) In any case, the
  sandbox approach to storytelling suffers from a lack of continuity
  or an overall theme to provide context and structure to the myriad
  voices. The result is often something like what one would hear from
  a choir in which each member is singing a different song. But since
  the focus isn't really on the story and the developer has
  (hopefully) done well with the interactive portion of the game, no
  one seems to mind too much.
  
  The data-intensive approach. Here, the developer *tells* a story to
  the players. The emphasis is strongly on the authorial will of the
  developer. The players lose much of their ability to interact with
  or influence the resulting story. In many cases, the players seem
  prone to ignore the story and return to their interaction. While
  this may be in large part a result of poor writing, it remains to be
  seen whether players are interested in being pulled away from their
  interaction at all. Personally, I tend to ignore text in MMO's. I
  skim for pertinent information and mentally discard the rest. I'm
  not sure that better written text would have much impact on this
  predisposition. If a story is to pull me in without making me feel
  like I'm leaving the game behind, I suspect it will do so by using
  in-game graphics as opposed to text. (Obviously, I'm talking about
  graphical MMORPG's here.) Still, even having graphics play out a
  scene in which I cannot interact doesn't sound terribly compelling,
  especially if I know that scene isn't really directed at me in any
  way. So the developer sings a solo part. I didn't join the choir
  to hear the developer sing solos, I joined the choir to sing. If I
  wanted to simply hear a solo, I'd be out in the audience...or off
  someplace watching Titantic. And really, there doesn't seem to be
  much precluding the rest of the choir from drowning out the solo
  with their own cacophony. I still think it is quite possible to
  spend a lot of resources creating a really good, professional story
  that is subsequently ignored in an MMO in favor of interaction.
  
  The process-intensive approach. It seems to me that there may be a
  middle ground between the above extremes. Or maybe even lots of
  middle grounds. I believe that a developer can be very deliberate
  about introducing theme, context, and structure in the form of
  process. In some cases, they can even introduce very specific data,
  but still leave most of the story unfinished. I've given examples
  of this in recent postings. The deliberate design of mining and
  item creation to facilitate varied goals and quests is one example
  of how process might be used to nudge players toward telling stories
  (interacting) within this context. You could also introduce
  something like the One Ring with its nine companions as specific
  data, but then let player interaction determine how the rest of the
  story will read. Here, instead of singing a specific solo part
  (data-intensive), perhaps the director suggests a chord upon which
  others can improvise (little data, mostly context or process). I
  suppose there still isn't much to keep choir members from heading
  off on their own, but I think there is much less chance that the
  effort will be ignored, since it still allows interaction to be
  primary.
  
  OK, it isn't the best analogy, but it is what comes to mind at the
  moment.
  
  --Phinehas
• • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
  • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
  • • Storied Games Dave Rickey
    • • Storied Games Travis Casey
    • Storied Games Paul Schwanz
    • • Storied Games Marian Griffith
      • • Storied Games Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
      • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
      • • Storied Games John W. Pierce
        • • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
          • • Storied Games jsmithn@hotmail.com
  • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
  • • Storied Games Miroslav Silovic
    • • Storied Games Derek Licciardi
      • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
      • • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
        • • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
          • • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
            • • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
• Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
• • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Bruce Mitchener
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
  • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Marian Griffith
• Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
• • Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment Matt Mihaly
    • Player Manipulation of Environment Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
    • • Player Manipulation of Environment Eli Stevens
  • Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
    • • Player Manipulation of Environment Adam Martin
      • Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
      • Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
      • • Player Manipulation of Environment Ling Lo
        • • Player Manipulation of Environment rayzam
          • Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
          • Player Manipulation of Environment Marc Hernandez
• Fw: AVATARS2001 this weekend Frank Crowell
• [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
• • [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
• Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Kathleen Foley
• • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
  • • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Dave Rickey
    • • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
• not about telling stories Joe Andrieu
• • not about telling stories Freeman, Jeff
  • not about telling stories Travis Casey
• Storytelling and Professionals (was) Lee Sheldon
• A Non-Cumulative Character MMORPG? Heresy! Paul Schwanz
• Storytelling and Professionals (was) Ananda Dawnsinger
• Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Zak Jarvis
• • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
  • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
    • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
      • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
  • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Lee Sheldon
• Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
• • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms vognsen@post10.tele.dk
  • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
    • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
      • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
      • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Per Vognsen
      • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
        • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Eli Stevens
  • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
  • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Nicholas E. Walker
  • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Marcus Johansson
    • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
    • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Leland Hulbert II
• [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview - Richard's blunder :) Mathieu Castelli
• Subject: New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Robert Arras
• Meridian 59 purchased by developers Andrew Kirmse
• • Meridian 59 purchased by developers James C. Nugen
  • Meridian 59 purchased by developers Frank Crowell
• [STORY] Story and population size Adam Martin
• • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Timothy Dang
      • • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
      • [STORY] Story and population size Vincent Archer
      • • [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
    • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
      • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
        • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Freeman
          • • [STORY] Story and population size Travis Nixon
          • [STORY] Story and population size Wells, Thomas
          • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
          • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
              • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
              • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
                • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
                  • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
            • [STORY] Story and population size Michael Tresca
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
        • [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
        • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
          • • [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
            • [STORY] Story and population size Paul Schwanz
            • [STORY] Story and population size Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Andrew Hefford
          • [STORY] Story and population size Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
  • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Marian Griffith
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
  • [STORY] Story and population size Bruce Mitchener
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Sellers, Mike
    • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
• [GENETICS] Evolving prey populations Adam Martin
• Stories, why? Ian Collyer
• • Stories, why? amanda@alfar.com
• Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Rob Ellis II
  • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Lee Sheldon
  • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Sellers, Mike
• Community Building Sanvean
• doesNotUnderstand behavior in C++ (was: Spoofs) Eli Stevens
• Importance of player roles Sasha Hart
• RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) lhulbert@hotmail.com
• • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) John Robert Arras
  • • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Leland Hulbert II
    • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) holding99@mindspring.com
  • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Dave Kennerly
  • • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Takis Kalogiratos
• Agora, a Wiki for MUD topics Bruce Mitchener