November 2001

• Digimask Technology. Matt Owen
• • Digimask Technology. Ian Macintosh
• Call for submissions to Game Programming Gems 3 Andrew Kirmse
• Virtual environments for education? Edward Glowacki
• • Virtual environments for education? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • • Virtual environments for education? Bruce Mitchener
  • Virtual environments for education? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
  • Virtual environments for education? Dr. Cat
  • Virtual environments for education? Mats Lidstrom
• Playing NPCs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
• A Hello, and thanks... o. rchaeus
• NPCS Mr Dylan Tovey
• • NPCS Travis Nixon
  • NPCS luke@rocketship.com
• Story in MM*s [was ] Joe Andrieu
• player-driven content? Sasha Hart
• • player-driven content? Paul Schwanz
  • • player-driven content? Bruce Mitchener
• (no subject) J C Lawrence
• • (no subject) Koster, Raph
  • (no subject) Peter Tyson
• WebRPG Travis Casey
• [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
• • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Brian Hook
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Nathan F. Yospe
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Mats Lidstrom
  • [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
• "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
• • "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
  • • "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
    • • "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
        Mike Sellers posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:22 AM
        
        > Well, it all depends on your goals. If we're talking about
        > ultra-niche hobbies, then paper RPGs are at least as "alive" as
        > bone-shaker bicycles and Space:1999 fan clubs. These groups and
        > hundreds of others like them also have huge conventions not unlike
        > GenCon; and yet none of them could be considered to be widely
        > popular pastimes.
        
        I could keep saying "wow" but I think I effectively conveyed my
        horror at such statements. I don't even know what a bone-shaker
        bicycle is, but it sounds unpleasant.
        
        I have to disagree with you. To compare Space:1999 fan clubs with
        Gen Con is laughably absurd.
        
        From http://www.wizards.com/gencon/2001/main.asp?x 01/exhibitor:
        
        "We currently expect 26,000 individual gamers from around the
        world to create an outstanding turnstile attendance at Gen Con
        2001 -- multiply individual attendees by the number of days they
        attend, and we're looking at an overall attendance of over 75,000!
        Last year, Gen Con posted a final attendance figure of 25,049
        individuals, or a turnstile attendance of 71,128."
        
        In contrast, a Gerry Anderson, creator of Space:1999 convention (aka
        Fanderson) (source http://www.pulpfantasy.com/clark3.htm):
        
        "I estimated that about 250 fans had taken the time to travel long
        distances and attend the convention."
        
        Or the Space:1999 Breakaway Convention (source
        http://www.space1999.net/~catacombs/main/w2con99.html)
        
        "It had the largest attendance of any convention since the 1970s -
        over 300 people, mostly from the US, Canada and the UK but with
        delegations from France, Italy, Belgium, Germany, Sweden, Brazil,
        Australia and New Zealand."
        
        > OTOH, if we're talking about paper RPGs as a source of "sweeping
        > change," it's a different story. I stand by what I said above:
        > outside of Hasbro (who bought Wizards of the Coast, who bought TSR
        > (at fire sale prices), who made D&D), there's just not much of a
        > market for paper RPGs.
        
        Or, to put it another way:
        
        "Outside of the Beatles and Led Zepplin, there wasn't much of a
        market for rock."
        
        "Outside of Michael Jackson, there wasn't much of a market for pop."
        
        "Outside of..."
        
        This is not to say, by any means, that Hasbro/TSR/WOTC are the
        be-all and end-all of RPGs. They did, however, have such a
        tremendous impact in the industry that to ignore them seriously
        skews your findings.
        
        Additionally, WOTC has created the Open Gaming License. From
        (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org):
        
        1. Game Rules and materials that use those rules that can be
        freely copied, modified and distributed.
        
        2. A system for ensuring that material contributed to the Open
        Gaming community will remain Open and cannot be made Closed once
        contributed.
        
        This license gave birth to a multitude of companies who use the D20
        RPG system for their own games. Here's a list of publishers (hint:
        there's a lot):
        
        http://www.d20reviews.com/Eric/d20guide/
        
        > In the micro sense, they're as alive as your gaming group makes
        > them. In the macro sense, they're the furthest thing from a
        > robust, world-changing industry.
        
        You're right. They already changed the world. Many, many, MANY of
        the current MMORPGs and CRPGs are clearly inspired, influenced, or
        directly ripped off of RPGs. This is by no means an indication that
        they are replaced. Only Neverwinter Nights, in my opinion, has a
        realistic chance at becoming the "quasi-replacement" for
        role-playing. WebRPG never cut it for me.
        
        >> ... this new thread has really revealed those statements to be
        >> quite accurate -- it's not just "We're not role-players," it's
        >> "We're not role-players and you stupid role-players know nothing
        >> about gaming!"
        
        > I'm not sure how you got any of that from what Raph or I said.
        > I'm a long-time paper RPGer, and I believe Raph is too. Most
        > online game people are (there's one or two vibrant D&Dv3 campaigns
        > going on after hours in our office).
        
        Probably because words like "deeply insular aficionados" were used
        to describe the only people who "know or care" about pen-and-paper
        RPGs.
        
        > Paper RPGs are cool, but they've largely been superceded by
        > computer games (online and offline), and this trend shows no sign
        > of reversing.
        
        They have not been superceded. Different gaming audience, as Dave
        pointed out. What I'm more disturbed by is that I assumed (and, I'm
        learning, I assumed wrong) that game developers kept in touch with
        all forms of gaming communities. It just makes good marketing
        sense. The mere fact that a convention of over 25,000 attendees is
        grouped with a convention of around 300 means we're not as in touch
        with what's going on in the various gaming communities as we need to
        be.
        
        I do not believe people play a single "type" of game -- they play
        what's fun and immediately available. CRPGs and MMORPGs require
        computers -- graphically capable computers -- money, and time. Not
        everyone has all of those. I can get infinite mileage out of a RPG
        -- CRPGs can rapidly diminish in playability after a couple of weeks
        of gaming.
        
        > But that doesn't change the reality that most -- nearly all, and
        > maybe *all* -- paper RPGs are hanging on by their fingernails, and
        > could vanish pretty much any time (if you think Hasbro is above
        > this, I'll direct you to the graves of SPI and AH).
        
        I brought this up at Gen Con. Given the economic downturn, won't
        that affect people's game purchases? I was chastised then too (I
        was very loud and inquisitive at Gen Con, bet you couldn't guess
        that couldja?!): No, it was explained, role-playing games sell
        better than ever during times like these. Why? 1) because of the
        infinite possible returns on investment (see above) and 2) because
        people want escapism during bad times
        
        So you've got a cheap, imaginative game world that doesn't require a
        computer. The economy's bad for everybody. I do worry about the
        gaming industry. But not for the reasons you've stated.
        
        > Let's see how many are around next year, and how many of those are
        > left have sold out their first printing.
        
        Deal. We'll check back in a year (and, in theory, in an economic
        upswing).
        
        > No, I believe paper RPGs are commercially dead because I've
        > researched the sector and understand the demographics and sales
        > trends of those in that market. Fewer people are playing paper
        > RPGs because we've aged and those who might have started playing
        > them as we did at 10 or 15 years old have instead gravitated
        > toward more visual, interactive, and immediate computer games.
        
        WOTC's statistics disagree with you. Just the short version:
        
        - WOTC's market research found "more than 2 million people,
        between the ages of 12 and 35 in the US playing at least one
        tabletop RPG monthly, and nearly 5 million who reported playing at
        least once sometime in the past year."
        
        We can go round and round with this. I don't feel that RPGs are
        necessarily in competition with CRPGs and MMORPGs -- as I said,
        tabletop RPGs always come first for every player I've encountered.
        Raph mourned the death of RPGs. Consider this a comforting reminder
        that they're not dead. They may not be making the cash flow that
        online games are making, but they are hardly "ultra-niche", "buggy
        whips", or played only by "deeply insular aficionados."
        
        Mike "Talien" Tresca, a deeply insular aficionado
    • "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
    • "sweeping change"? Matt Mihaly
    • • "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
• Re[4]: Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
• Cynical at a young age T.A.J.BARTON
• Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) John Mariotti
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Matt Chatterley
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sean K
  • Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Don Healey
• Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
• • Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
  • • Some survey results... Jeremy Noetzelman
    • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
  • Some survey results... Dr. Cat
  • • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
    • • Some survey results... Dr. Cat
  • Some survey results... Derek Snider
  • • Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
  • Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
• Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
• • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Leland Hulbert II
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
          • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Sellers, Mike
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Valerio Santinelli
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Brian Hook
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ola Fosheim Grøstad
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
      • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
          • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
    • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
    • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
      • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
      • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
        • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
        • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ling Lo
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
  • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
  • • Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
• [DGN] The Human Condition Kwon Ekstrom
• Multi-protagonist stories. Paul Schwanz
• • Multi-protagonist stories. Matt Mihaly
• licensing Adam Martin
• • licensing Vincent Archer
  • licensing Travis Casey
• Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sami Kosonen
• Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Brian Hook
• • Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
  • Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
• Good Writing (was: Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
• • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Buehler
    • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
    • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
    • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
    • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Mark Eaton
      • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
      • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
      • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
        • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
          • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
        • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Andrew Hefford
        • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Matt Mihaly
  • • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
  • New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
• Storied Games Paul Schwanz
• • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
  • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
  • • Storied Games Dave Rickey
    • • Storied Games Travis Casey
    • Storied Games Paul Schwanz
    • • Storied Games Marian Griffith
      • • Storied Games Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
      • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
      • • Storied Games John W. Pierce
        • • Storied Games Lee Sheldon
          • • Storied Games jsmithn@hotmail.com
  • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
  • • Storied Games Miroslav Silovic
    • • Storied Games Derek Licciardi
      • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
      • • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
        • • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
          • • Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
            • • Storied Games Matt Mihaly
• Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
• • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Bruce Mitchener
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
  • Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Marian Griffith
• Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
• • Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment Matt Mihaly
    • Player Manipulation of Environment Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
    • • Player Manipulation of Environment Eli Stevens
  • Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
  • • Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
    • • Player Manipulation of Environment Adam Martin
      • Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
      • Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
      • • Player Manipulation of Environment Ling Lo
        • • Player Manipulation of Environment rayzam
          • Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
          • Player Manipulation of Environment Marc Hernandez
• Fw: AVATARS2001 this weekend Frank Crowell
• [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
• • [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
• Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Kathleen Foley
• • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
  • • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Dave Rickey
    • • Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
• not about telling stories Joe Andrieu
• • not about telling stories Freeman, Jeff
  • not about telling stories Travis Casey
• Storytelling and Professionals (was) Lee Sheldon
• A Non-Cumulative Character MMORPG? Heresy! Paul Schwanz
• Storytelling and Professionals (was) Ananda Dawnsinger
• Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Zak Jarvis
• • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
  • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
    • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
      • • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
  • Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Lee Sheldon
• Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
• • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms vognsen@post10.tele.dk
  • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
    • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
      • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
      • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Per Vognsen
      • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
        • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Eli Stevens
  • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
  • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Nicholas E. Walker
  • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Marcus Johansson
    • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
    • • Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Leland Hulbert II
• [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview - Richard's blunder :) Mathieu Castelli
• Subject: New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Robert Arras
• Meridian 59 purchased by developers Andrew Kirmse
• • Meridian 59 purchased by developers James C. Nugen
  • Meridian 59 purchased by developers Frank Crowell
• [STORY] Story and population size Adam Martin
• • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Timothy Dang
      • • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
      • [STORY] Story and population size Vincent Archer
      • • [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
    • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
      • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
        • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Freeman
          • • [STORY] Story and population size Travis Nixon
          • [STORY] Story and population size Wells, Thomas
          • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
          • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
              • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
              • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
                • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
                  • • [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
            • [STORY] Story and population size Michael Tresca
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
        • [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
        • • [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
          • • [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
            • [STORY] Story and population size Paul Schwanz
            • [STORY] Story and population size Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
            • • [STORY] Story and population size Andrew Hefford
          • [STORY] Story and population size Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
  • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Marian Griffith
    • • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
  • [STORY] Story and population size Bruce Mitchener
  • • [STORY] Story and population size Sellers, Mike
    • [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
• [GENETICS] Evolving prey populations Adam Martin
• Stories, why? Ian Collyer
• • Stories, why? amanda@alfar.com
• Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Rob Ellis II
  • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Lee Sheldon
  • Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Sellers, Mike
• Community Building Sanvean
• doesNotUnderstand behavior in C++ (was: Spoofs) Eli Stevens
• Importance of player roles Sasha Hart
• RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) lhulbert@hotmail.com
• • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) John Robert Arras
  • • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Leland Hulbert II
    • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) holding99@mindspring.com
  • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Dave Kennerly
  • • RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Takis Kalogiratos
• Agora, a Wiki for MUD topics Bruce Mitchener